My guest today is Tania de Jong, co-founder of Mind Medicine Australia. Tania and her husband, Peter, helped lead the push that, in 2023, made Australia the first country in the world to allow MDMA and psilocybin to be prescribed for psychiatric conditions. I wanted to understand how the hell they helped make that happen and what the rest of the world can learn from it.

Please enjoy!

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Transcripts

• This episode (coming soon)
• All episodes

Show Notes

Connect with Tania

Website | LinkedIn | Mind Medicine Australia

Timeline:

• February 2, 2015: Michael Pollan publishes “The Trip Treatment” in The New Yorker, which is the article Tania credits with setting her journey in motion.
• March 21, 2015: Tim releases his James Fadiman interview, “The Psychedelic Explorer’s Guide” (#66). Its show notes link to “The Trip Treatment.”
• January 15, 2016: Tim announces support for Johns Hopkins’ psilocybin research and a personal commitment of at least $100,000 toward psychedelic research that year.
• 2016: Tania and Peter travel to the Netherlands for their first guided psilocybin experience. (Source)
• 2017–2019: UCSF conducts the psilocybin-assisted group-therapy study involving long-term AIDS survivors that Tim helped support. (Source)
• May 6, 2018: Michael Pollan joins Tim for “Exploring the New Science of Psychedelics” (#313), discussing his forthcoming book (How to Change Your Mind).
• May 15, 2018: Pollan’s How to Change Your Mind is published.
• February 13, 2019: Tania and Peter publicly launch Mind Medicine Australia. (Source)
• 2020–2022: MMA applies to reschedule MDMA and psilocybin, faces rejection, and submits new applications in March 2022. (Source)
• November 21, 2022: David Nutt presents to Australia’s medicines regulator, the TGA, supporting the case for therapeutic access. (Source)
• February 3, 2023: The TGA announces restricted prescribing access to MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression, effective July 1, 2023. (Source)
• January 2024: Patients begin receiving treatment under the new prescribing program. (Source)

Books

• Be Here Now by Ram Dass
• How to Change Your Mind by Michael Pollan
• Waking the Tiger: Healing Trauma by Peter A. Levine, with Ann Frederick

Related Reading, Listening, and Viewing

• “The Trip Treatment” by Michael Pollan | The New Yorker
• How Singing Together Changes the Brain — Tania de Jong | TEDxMelbourne
• Becoming Nobody — a documentary about Ram Dass
• “‘Serious Concerns’ over TGA’s Decision Making on Landmark Psilocybin, MDMA Ruling” | ABC News
• Change to Classification of Psilocybin and MDMA to Enable Prescribing by Authorised Psychiatrists | Therapeutic Goods Administration
• Psilocybin-Assisted Group Therapy for Demoralized Older Long-Term AIDS Survivor Men: An Open-Label Safety and Feasibility Pilot Study
• Dr. Gül Dölen on Rethinking Psychedelics, the Neurobiology of Beginner’s Mind, and the Master Key of Metaplasticity | The Tim Ferriss Show #667
• Rick Doblin — The Psychedelic Domino That Tips All Others | The Tim Ferriss Show #440
• Roland Griffiths — Facing Death, Meditation, Psychedelics, and Living a Life of Gratitude | The Tim Ferriss Show #641

Organizations and Resources

• Mind Medicine Australia’s Patient Support Fund
• Certificate in Psychedelic-Assisted Therapies
• Mind Medicine Australia’s TGA Rescheduling Submissions and Resources
• Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies (MAPS)
• Usona Institute
• Internal Family Systems Institute
• Australian Interventional Pharmacotherapy and Psychedelic-Assisted Psychotherapy Research Registry | Australian National University

People Mentioned

• Peter Hunt
• Robin Carhart-Harris
• Roland Griffiths
• Rick Doblin
• David Nutt
• Bill Linton
• Paul Fitzgerald
• Gül Dölen

Timestamps

[00:00:00] Intro from Tim.

[00:02:46] The article that changed Tania’s life.

[00:04:39] A first psychedelic experience—and the year it took to integrate it.

[00:10:17] Rick Doblin’s encouragement and the birth of Mind Medicine Australia.

[00:13:15] Turning regulatory rejection into a stronger application.

[00:20:48] Building a grassroots movement and training clinicians.

[00:23:23] Cold emails, scientific allies, and singing your way into the room.

[00:31:11] A week with Ram Dass: silence, singing, and an extraordinary LSD story.

[00:37:54] Bringing David Nutt—and a family’s devastating story—to the regulators.

[00:42:42] Dancing in the kitchen: Australia’s rescheduling breakthrough.

[00:43:40] From changing the rules to treating patients.

[00:48:18] Why Tim thinks MDMA is still underestimated.

[00:50:23] Integration beyond the session: therapy, nutrition, and exercise.

[00:52:29] Scaling access and collecting real-world evidence.

[00:58:13] Getting insurers, government agencies, and philanthropists on board.

[01:01:39] Syrian rue, psilocybin, and learning to let go of control.

[01:10:01] Dosing, expectations, and the pressure to take more.

[01:12:02] The promise of group therapy and shared integration.

[01:14:22] Hiring mistakes, personal attacks, and the resilience advocacy requires.

[01:23:38] Turning a window of change into lasting habits.

[01:25:51] Getting through to regulators and pushing for end-of-life access.

[01:28:27] The bureaucratic barriers that remain.

[01:31:38] What treatment costs—and why therapist time drives the bill.

[01:35:07] Could shorter-acting compounds make treatment more affordable?

[01:38:46] Ketamine, kratom, and the limits of “all natural.”

[01:43:14] The unexpected payoff from Tim’s ketamine experiment.

[01:47:46] What might come next for psychedelic access worldwide?

[01:49:04] Persistence versus pushiness—and knowing when to try another door.

[01:54:22] Supporting patients and training the next wave of clinicians.

[01:57:51] “Be curious”: exploring your inner world and walking each other home.

[02:01:35] The ripple effects of sharing your curiosity—and simply asking for help.