Bernie Sanders discusses the state of the labor movement as it contends with the “most consequential, by far, industrial revolution in the history of the world”

Last Sunday afternoon, I found myself with more than 100 New Yorkers in a not-unusual place to find oneself in the city: waiting in line. We were there for a rally to launch Union Now, a new nonprofit organization created by Sara Nelson, president of the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA, meant to support workers fighting for fair contracts. In attendance were several local and national labor leaders including Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers. New York Mayor Zohran Mamdani and Sen. Bernie Sanders, two larger-than-life figures who have become key leaders in the ascendant left-wing of the Democratic Party, headlined the event.

Singer-songwriter Josh Ritter opened with an acoustic set culminating in a cover of Woody Gutherie’s “This Land Is Your Land,” joined by Sara Nelson, in a bittersweet moment that recalled a bygone era where the left and labor unions had far greater sway in national affairs. While the rally highlighted the power of unions, it also emphasized the consequences of their decline. Over the past 40 years, rates of unionization in the U.S. have plummeted from more than 20 percent to now slightly above 10 percent. During this time, inequality has increased, millions of working-class jobs have been shipped overseas, and politics has become increasingly driven by the interests of the wealthy.

Speakers at the rally took shots at AI and Silicon Valley leaders who they cast as emblematic of an increasingly elite-driven politics. Mamdani and Sanders both highlighted artificial intelligence and robotics as major threats to workers. Attendees I spoke with expressed a mix of concern and outrage over AI and automation. One member of a local carpenter’s union said he was worried that neither party had successfully laid out a pro-worker path forward for AI, which he felt would hit like a “freight train” in the coming years. Around halfway through the rally, a nearby man shouted “Fuck Sam Altman” to applause.

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Concerns over automation present a challenge for organized labor as it seeks to rebuild its former standing. As policymakers on the left and right look to bring back manufacturing — a traditional bastion for unions — some posit that many if not all returning jobs would be automated, highlighting growing automation in China and the rise of “lights out” factories that have automated to the point that lighting is no longer needed. Facing this, as well as fears over job losses across all sectors, many labor leaders have highlighted the need for greater power in establishing policy.

This is where organizations like Union Now hope to provide additional support. As unionization continues to decline and the Trump administration guts workplace protections, Sara Nelson hopes that the organization will be a force to connect unions and workers with additional resources as they fight for fair wages and greater protections for workers. She told me after the event that her goal is to provide an additional mechanism of support for workers who are trying to organize. “If we can help them have the time and not have to be able to pick up another shift, or work a second job, and they can focus on the organizing, they can win,” she said.

Nelson’s vision of renewed strength in organized labor speaks to a broader shift in American politics. As the consequences of the declining unions and increased inequality have been laid bare, more and more people are seeking a political alternative focused on reestablishing labor and working people as a central force in politics. This vision has long been shared by Sanders, who for decades has been championing working-class issues. At 84, Sanders has witnessed both the peak of this power as well as its decline.

Following the rally, I spoke with Sanders about the decline of unions, automation, and what the future of labor might look like.

The transcript that follows has been edited for length and clarity.

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We’re here today to celebrate and advocate for organized labor and unions, but the reality is that over the last 40 years, rates of unionization in the U.S. have plummeted. What’s driving that decline, and do you think it can be turned around?
I absolutely think it can be turned around. Why that has taken place is for a number of reasons. We had trade policies in this country — NAFTA, Permanent Normal Trade Relations with China — that resulted in many thousands of factories being shut down, where workers hadn’t been represented by unions. Millions of decent paying jobs, many union jobs were lost. The union membership goes down when jobs are lost and union workers die.

Second of all, we have seen in an unprecedented way just incredible anti-union and union-busting activity on the part of corporate America. I am now the ranking member of the Health, Education, Labor, and Pension Committee, and almost every week I’m on the phone with workers around the country who are trying to organize, trying to get a contract, and the kind of horrible things that the companies are doing to try to make it impossible for them to have a union.

These companies break the law every day, they do it with impunity norms to kind of punish them, which is why we need to bring about strong legislation which makes it possible for workers to form unions without having their companies, their bosses, act illegally against them. 

There’s been a lot of talk today on the threat of AI and automation. When we’re talking about bringing back manufacturing jobs to the U.S., do you see, as many have said, that a lot of these jobs may be ultimately replaced by robots?
I’ve been spending a lot of time on [AI]. On Thursday, as a matter of fact, we’re going to be doing an event in Washington with many labor leaders. And the focus is going to be on AI and robotics, what it will mean to the working class, how we effectively bring it back. So it’s an issue I’m working very, very hard on.

I hope that everybody understands that this is not just another kind of economic transformation. This is the most consequential, by far, industrial revolution in the history of the world. It makes the revolution, the transformation from agriculture to industry, look very slow and tepid compared to what we’re seeing right now.

The question is, who will AI and robotics benefit? Will they simply benefit the billionaires who are investing huge amounts of money in it, whose job it is, whose goal it is to throw workers out on the street and reduce labor costs? Or will that technology be used to benefit and improve the standard of living of all people? That is the struggle of the moment.

You don’t see job losses as inevitable?
Well, what I see is that the struggle right now is who benefits from AI and robotics. So if you’re a worker and we have robots that can help out, and your work week can be reduced from 40 hours a week to 20 hours a week with no loss in pay, is that a bad thing? I don’t think so. So the question is, who benefits? And we’ve got to make sure that it’s working people that benefit, not just Mr. Musk and Mr. Bezos and the other guys.

Do you see building up unions as important for democracy?
Absolutely. Democracy is under assault right now from a number of directions. Clearly, Trump is an authoritarian and does not believe in democracy. I don’t think anyone has any doubts about that. But it’s not just Trump.

We’re also looking at a corrupt campaign finance system where billionaires are spending unlimited amounts of money to buy the candidates they want. So we need a strong, organized political force to demand that this country be a vibrant democracy — one person, one vote — where the needs of working people are heard, not an oligarchy where the rich and powerful control our government. And the strongest possible way, the strongest force to help us achieve that goal is the trade union movement.

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There’s a growing part of the Democratic Party that’s looking at the midterms and the future and sees a different path forward, focusing on things like supply constraints, reducing regulation, making building more affordable. On one end, I think that there is a lot of synergy with what you’re advocating for, but then there are many who embrace that sort of “abundance” ideology that are skeptical of unions, arguing that they raise prices.
I was a mayor for eight years. I work in the United States Senate. Bureaucracy is real. It slows things down, often unnecessarily. And we’ve got to deal with that. We’ve got to make government efficient and productive. No question about that. With a dedicated, well-paid, well-motivated workforce, that’s the goal.

This idea that just doing away with regulations is going to address the crisis that the working class of this country faces today is an absurd idea. That’s not the case. We need a political movement led by the working class, led by the trade unions, that is going to fight for an agenda that speaks to the needs of all. And that means health care for all, raising the minimum wage to a living wage, building the millions of units of affordable housing that we need.