🤖♥
6:01pm
newton:
Hello Mark, & the technically challenged
🤖♥
6:02pm
Handy Haversack:
We have to run. But happy New Year and deep thanks for another year of the best hour of radio on the best radio station on earth. Many thanks, Mark!
It was what was called a "4GL" 4th generation language, proprietary from a company called Information Builders. It was used on IBM Mainframes originally, then leapt to a bunch of other platforms. I worked on that mainframe version, and also on the MacOs (6-7) version that never came out. www.ibi.com...
🤖♥
6:15pm
chris in the redwoods:
i like python as well. it is ridiculously easy to put something together (albeit i know a great many languages, so the learning curve may not be as steep for me as it is to some)
🤖♥
6:16pm
Webhamster Henry:
I like assembler of course. I like super minimal languages like LISP ( until it's unusable) , FORTH, C which I used to call "the language of the phone company".
🤖♥
6:18pm
Webhamster Henry:
The fact that command line Shell languages and "make" languages are so awful as well boggles the mind.
You spend an awful lot of time just escaping things.
🤖♥
6:18pm
chris in the redwoods:
i could never fully wrap my brain around C and so was so overjoyed when Apple created Swift to i could dabble with apps.
I poke around a lot of confusing websites using the Javascript debugging console. Fun hint: want to see your password as you type it in? Do an "inspect element" on the password field, look for the <input line and change type="password" to type="text"
♥
6:28pm
Sean Bikes:
Great comment section here
Very interesting
Thank you
It's really a great illustration of Human ingenuity. As was mentioned, computer languages all start with a model of the problem they want to solve, so these examples show how twisted you can get to do a simple task! There used to be a magazine called Computer Language, that put out a spectacularly funny April Fools issue.
🤖♥
6:31pm
Will thee SG OCNY:
I don't program anywhere near how much I used to... Of late, I try to keep my website somewhat updated.
Right? The sheer amount of typing, just to give that illusion of readability.
I had an ironclad personal rule that I would never learn COBOL, to try to save myself from ever getting sucked into working on mainframe bookkeeping systems.
🤖♥
6:35pm
Deano de los Muertos:
just picked up a local beer called “Ctrl+Alt+Del”… a little techy
🤖♥
6:36pm
Webhamster Henry:
I contend that the end of the line is coming for human coding. The human job will be doing the prompt engineering of business processes, and some AI bot will build the code and the tests to test the code, and pay itself, of course.
🤖♥
6:36pm
ultradamno:
I would have thought bedlam went back farther...I know heathens are people of the heath
♥
6:36pm
Sean Bikes:
Sorry what is the name of the book - about the left and right hemispheres?
6:36pm
Dean:
Does he mention early logician Petrus Ramus?
And what kind of skill is required to distinguish language skills from mathematical skills?
♥
6:36pm
PaulRobeson1924:
Hello Mr.Hurst.
Warm greetings one & all
♥
6:38pm
PaulRobeson1924:
The food you eat. The friends you meet on the sullen street.! YEAH! DUDE!
♥
6:38pm
Mark Hurst:
Iain McGilchrist followed up that book with the two-part tome "The Matter with Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World." I'd like to read all three volumes at some point. (See meme at left about "my year-end reading statistics" to see a good depiction of my unread book pile.)
I hope that the correct answer to that is "Hell no, because people who love those damned things are too annoyingly impressed with dumb forms of cleverness that you can't possibly work with them!"
totally agree. wow, thanks, Mr. Smith for saying it so 'matter-of-fact.'
🤖♥
6:42pm
Will thee SG OCNY:
People who write ✍️ solid comments and documentation... They are brilliant... Some code is just a jumble of undocumented crap
Programming is like what's know as "Variety Cryptics where they are not only cryptic, but may have weird rules like "all the answers can add or remove a letter to get the real answer."
6:42pm
Al Garve:
City in my head / Dystopia
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6:42pm
he can jog:
"not liking people" is a pretty huge generalization that doesn't take into account neuro-divergent people, IMHO... this is an interesting discussion otherwise though...
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6:42pm
Bas NL:
Coding serves so many purposes. And needs a variety of brains.
🤖♥
6:44pm
ultradamno:
The show Silicon Valley was mentioned earlier, it not coincidentally could be viewed as characters from all over the spectrum. That is certainly something to take into account.
we aren't so distant from a time when "smart" programmers deliberately obfuscated their code. thankfully, at least in my experience, there are fewer and fewer of those narcissists.
*exactly* and it was up to people like me to get them to change or fire them. it costs more than it benefits any business.
🤖♥
6:47pm
ultradamno:
I love that Brightly Shining graphic. Though considering Hot Frosty and Sugarplummed both came out this season, it's a lot harder to out-absurd the x-mas movie grindhouse
🤖♥
6:48pm
Deano de los Muertos:
congrats on another syndication, Mark. Welcome Little Rock
6:48pm
Dean:
sigh
there is no human-made environment
computers don't "become" mundane. they are mundane, part of the world. It's our business whether or not computers are boring or commonplace.
I mean, chresti, that San Gabriel is a marvelous place to have the privilege to visit, and I mean it genuinely. I don't get the adoration of the exotic.
♥
6:48pm
PaulRobeson1924:
The mind, the body, the spirit, the spirit in the sky- WFMU
🤖♥
6:51pm
chris in the redwoods:
must leave early to run an errand. thanks, Mark. fabulous conversation.
thanks, everyone here for the great conversation as well!
I tell people that programming IS continuous learning, so those damn interviews about solving some stupid CompSci problem are pointless!
6:52pm
Dean:
My hammer still works just fine.
🤖♥
6:52pm
he can jog:
speaking of supercollider -- thank you for an interesting show, Makr! -- sonic-pi.net <-- runs supercollider synths, but lets you program it in a basic-ish language (very good!)
🤖♥
6:54pm
Spikey BXL:
Thanks Mark and happy new year!
🤖♥
6:55pm
herb.nyc:
Be positive. Thx for reminding me (as I veer negative too much). And thx for doing techtonic program. Happy new year to you, and all.
🤖♥
6:55pm
he can jog:
I'm also so happy to Andrew featured here :)
6:56pm
drew:
Open source software (OSS) has been embraced by big tech companies and is another way they drain wealth from us now. OSS socializes the cost of software and allows those giants to privatize the profits.
It's a far cry from Richard Stallman's "free software," focusing on freedoms for people, not "free as in beer."
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6:56pm
Bas NL:
Thanks Mark and Andrew! Have a great New Year all!
6:56pm
Fredericks:
↳
Dean @6:55
They were women, no?
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6:56pm
erik:
My uncle was a computer - he calculated if the highway department was being billed correctly by the contractors in the 50's to 70s.
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6:58pm
Noir Lover:
At least make the left brained coders take a corporate improv class.
🤖♥
6:58pm
erik:
I write code as part of my living, if we are not reducing toil in the users life, we aren't doing the job right.
6:58pm
drew:
Yes, most computers used to be women before Burroughs, IBM, et al. replaced them.
6:58pm
yippie:
i also heard that one of the first programmable computer like devices was used to weave, which is historically known to be a good job for women
♥
7:00pm
bleubombersune:
Mark great interview. All stray safe and be well Enjoy the rest of 2024. Fortran is my bag
7:00pm
ifny:
Absolutely loved everything about everything about everything in today's show. As per usual! Didn't get to hear the whole episode but can't wait to download it for wardriving. Looking forward to reading the comments later as well. Solidarity coding FTW <3
Listener comments!
: Mark! Techtonofthemornings!
newton: Hello Mark, & the technically challenged
Handy Haversack: We have to run. But happy New Year and deep thanks for another year of the best hour of radio on the best radio station on earth. Many thanks, Mark!
Happy New Year, Techyons!
ultradamno: 😈
Will thee SG OCNY: Good evening Mark Hurst and all!!!
Spikey BXL: Good evening Mark, luddites
joe_rosevear: Hello Mark and all!
Deano de los Muertos: Howdy Mark and gang
Mark Hurst:
↳ Handy Haversack @6:02
Thanks, Handy, and happy new year to you & K8!Ken From Hyde Park: Let me guess: It's between the transport layer and the application layer?
Mark Hurst: ultra, newton, WtSG, Spikey, joe_r, Deano, KfHP - welcome! Glad to see you here for our last show of the year.
Mark Hurst:
↳ Ken From Hyde Park @6:06
Heh - no, something more abstract than that...Bas NL: Hi Mark and all!
Webhamster Henry: Hi Techtonics! I was a major developer of the language "FOCUS", and wrote a bunch of "Little Languages"
Mark Hurst:
↳ Bas NL @6:09
Welcome, Bas!Mark Hurst:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:09
Welcome, webham - where can we learn more about FOCUS?Webhamster Henry: the languages of web development: HTML, CSS, Javascript and the backend stuff like PHP are all kind of horrid.
chresti: Hi Mark and techtonicians!
chris in the redwoods: hi, Mark and all!
enjoying the coding chat. :)
Will thee SG OCNY:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:10
TruthMark Hurst:
↳ Will thee SG OCNY @6:11
Andrew, in his book, does have some choice words about PHP (quoting developers who are... unhappy with it)chris in the redwoods:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:10
i had a boss who just called it hacking, in a derogatory sense. he wasn't totally wrong. :)Webhamster Henry:
↳ Mark Hurst @6:10
It was what was called a "4GL" 4th generation language, proprietary from a company called Information Builders. It was used on IBM Mainframes originally, then leapt to a bunch of other platforms. I worked on that mainframe version, and also on the MacOs (6-7) version that never came out. www.ibi.com...Mark Hurst:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:12
Nice! Sorry it never made it to MacOS.Webhamster Henry: I like python, and python variants Julia and a few other variants.
Webhamster Henry:
↳ Mark Hurst @6:13
I did make an extension to Hypercard that could talk to FOCUS Databases...steveo: I miss Perl
chris in the redwoods: i like python as well. it is ridiculously easy to put something together (albeit i know a great many languages, so the learning curve may not be as steep for me as it is to some)
Webhamster Henry: I like assembler of course. I like super minimal languages like LISP ( until it's unusable) , FORTH, C which I used to call "the language of the phone company".
Webhamster Henry: The fact that command line Shell languages and "make" languages are so awful as well boggles the mind.
Webhamster Henry:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:18
You spend an awful lot of time just escaping things.chris in the redwoods: i could never fully wrap my brain around C and so was so overjoyed when Apple created Swift to i could dabble with apps.
Bas NL:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:18
Hear, hear!Webhamster Henry: If you'd like to look at computer languages, check out the classic "99 bottles of beer on the wall"
99-bottles-of-beer.net...
Webhamster Henry: I should have started this comment stream with "Don't Get Me Started"
Mark Hurst:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:19
I love this!Jeff Moore:
↳ steveo @6:15
All the best people still want to reach for Perl first.Dano59: I use "view source" to find downloadable files and that's all the coding I ever wanna see.
Webhamster Henry:
↳ Jeff Moore @6:21
some WFMU CGI-bin routines were written in Perl.Webhamster Henry: Mr. Smith is referring to the steampunk classic "The Difference Engine" by Gibson and Sterling
Jeff Moore:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:18
My prime example of a nominally very pleasant language which ends up getting annoying because of quoting/escaping hell is Tcl.Webhamster Henry:
↳ Dano59 @6:23
I poke around a lot of confusing websites using the Javascript debugging console. Fun hint: want to see your password as you type it in? Do an "inspect element" on the password field, look for the <input line and change type="password" to type="text"Sean Bikes: Great comment section here
Very interesting
Thank you
Dano59:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:19
I am oddly pleased that Hyperczrd is includedDano59:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:27
yikes!Webhamster Henry:
↳ Jeff Moore @6:27
Oh yeah and then there are the "user friendly English"-like languages like COBOL where you say "ADD A TO B GIVING C"Dano59:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:27
I'm mainly trying to find info or still-extant files from 20- to 25-year-old defunct music blogs.Mark Hurst:
↳ Sean Bikes @6:28
Thanks for checking in, SeanWebhamster Henry:
↳ Dano59 @6:28
It's really a great illustration of Human ingenuity. As was mentioned, computer languages all start with a model of the problem they want to solve, so these examples show how twisted you can get to do a simple task! There used to be a magazine called Computer Language, that put out a spectacularly funny April Fools issue.Will thee SG OCNY: I don't program anywhere near how much I used to... Of late, I try to keep my website somewhat updated.
Jeff Moore:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:29
Right? The sheer amount of typing, just to give that illusion of readability.I had an ironclad personal rule that I would never learn COBOL, to try to save myself from ever getting sucked into working on mainframe bookkeeping systems.
PaulRobeson1924: Empathy…
Jeff Moore: Also: programming is a language skill, not (as so many people have assumed) a mathematical one.
Mark Hurst:
↳ Jeff Moore @6:34
Andrew goes deep on this point in the book.Mark Hurst:
↳ PaulRobeson1924 @6:33
Indeed!Deano de los Muertos: just picked up a local beer called “Ctrl+Alt+Del”… a little techy
Webhamster Henry: I contend that the end of the line is coming for human coding. The human job will be doing the prompt engineering of business processes, and some AI bot will build the code and the tests to test the code, and pay itself, of course.
ultradamno: I would have thought bedlam went back farther...I know heathens are people of the heath
Sean Bikes: Sorry what is the name of the book - about the left and right hemispheres?
Dean: Does he mention early logician Petrus Ramus?
And what kind of skill is required to distinguish language skills from mathematical skills?
PaulRobeson1924: Hello Mr.Hurst.
Warm greetings one & all
chris in the redwoods:
↳ Jeff Moore @6:34
when i was a hiring manager in a programming shop, i'd ask folks how many human languages they know, also, reading and playing music counted :)Mark Hurst:
↳ Sean Bikes @6:36
Listed & linked here on the playlist - • The Master and His Emissary: The Divided Brain and the Making of the Western World, by Iain McGilchristkylepw: What book did he just plug??
newton:
↳ Sean Bikes @6:36
bookshop.org...Sean Bikes: Thank you, Mark and Newton
he can jog: Is the right brain / left brain division still being explored? I thought it wasn't such a clear divide as this.
Webhamster Henry:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:36
I always thought the programming interview question should be "Do you do cryptic crossword puzzles"?Jeff Moore:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:36
right onPaulRobeson1924: The mind. The body. & the food we eat
PaulRobeson1924: The food you eat. The friends you meet on the sullen street.! YEAH! DUDE!
Mark Hurst: Iain McGilchrist followed up that book with the two-part tome "The Matter with Things: Our Brains, Our Delusions, and the Unmaking of the World." I'd like to read all three volumes at some point. (See meme at left about "my year-end reading statistics" to see a good depiction of my unread book pile.)
Noir Lover: Excellent convo / guest
supremo: I'm an Ada developer and so remain in a fortress.
Mark Hurst:
↳ he can jog @6:37
McGilchrist has written the definitive account - and he disposes with the simplistic left-right models.chris in the redwoods:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:37
haha! i'd fail that interview, though i *try* :)Mark Hurst:
↳ Noir Lover @6:39
Thanks, NoirMark Hurst: "Writing good software is an exercise in empathy."
Jeff Moore:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:37
I hope that the correct answer to that is "Hell no, because people who love those damned things are too annoyingly impressed with dumb forms of cleverness that you can't possibly work with them!"chris in the redwoods:
↳ Mark Hurst @6:40
totally agree. wow, thanks, Mr. Smith for saying it so 'matter-of-fact.'Will thee SG OCNY: People who write ✍️ solid comments and documentation... They are brilliant... Some code is just a jumble of undocumented crap
Webhamster Henry:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:39
Programming is like what's know as "Variety Cryptics where they are not only cryptic, but may have weird rules like "all the answers can add or remove a letter to get the real answer."Al Garve: City in my head / Dystopia
he can jog: "not liking people" is a pretty huge generalization that doesn't take into account neuro-divergent people, IMHO... this is an interesting discussion otherwise though...
Bas NL: Coding serves so many purposes. And needs a variety of brains.
chris in the redwoods:
↳ Bas NL @6:42
absolutely true!Dean: After the moon? You go to San Gabriel.
Jeff Moore:
↳ he can jog @6:42
Hey! Good to see you pop up!ultradamno: The show Silicon Valley was mentioned earlier, it not coincidentally could be viewed as characters from all over the spectrum. That is certainly something to take into account.
chris in the redwoods:
↳ Will thee SG OCNY @6:42
we aren't so distant from a time when "smart" programmers deliberately obfuscated their code. thankfully, at least in my experience, there are fewer and fewer of those narcissists.he can jog: Hi Jeff! :)
Will thee SG OCNY:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:45
It was a job security sort of thing. They can't get rid of me if I'm the only one who knows how it worksbleubombersune: Superb
chresti:
↳ Dean @6:44
What?Webhamster Henry:
↳ Will thee SG OCNY @6:46
Sometime, just by being old, clear code becomes obfuscated! This is "Legacy Code"chris in the redwoods:
↳ Will thee SG OCNY @6:46
*exactly* and it was up to people like me to get them to change or fire them. it costs more than it benefits any business.ultradamno: I love that Brightly Shining graphic. Though considering Hot Frosty and Sugarplummed both came out this season, it's a lot harder to out-absurd the x-mas movie grindhouse
chris in the redwoods:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:47
there's a lot of truth there, to be sure.Ken From Hyde Park: Welcome, Little Rockers!
DjLorraine: KABF? Little Rock
Bea: Welcome, Little Rock!!
Deano de los Muertos: congrats on another syndication, Mark. Welcome Little Rock
Dean: sigh
there is no human-made environment
computers don't "become" mundane. they are mundane, part of the world. It's our business whether or not computers are boring or commonplace.
I mean, chresti, that San Gabriel is a marvelous place to have the privilege to visit, and I mean it genuinely. I don't get the adoration of the exotic.
PaulRobeson1924: The mind, the body, the spirit, the spirit in the sky- WFMU
Webhamster Henry:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:48
The Official Way To Do It changes a lot, <cough,cough>Apple audio APIs<cough, cough>ultradamno:
↳ ultradamno @6:47
...not to mention Carnage For Christmas bsky.app...chris in the redwoods:
↳ Webhamster Henry @6:49
absolutely. if you don't love learning something new every year, don't become a programmer. hehe.chresti:
↳ Dean @6:48
Ah see.Will thee SG OCNY: Now its probably coded with gen Z slang
If skibidibi then cringe
Webhamster Henry:
↳ Song: "Mark's comments"
Obligatory trailer: www.youtube.com...chris in the redwoods: must leave early to run an errand. thanks, Mark. fabulous conversation.
thanks, everyone here for the great conversation as well!
DjLorraine:
↳ DjLorraine @6:48
88.3 FM !coelacanth∅: Thanks Mark! Thanks Andrew!
Webhamster Henry:
↳ chris in the redwoods @6:50
I tell people that programming IS continuous learning, so those damn interviews about solving some stupid CompSci problem are pointless!Dean: My hammer still works just fine.
he can jog: speaking of supercollider -- thank you for an interesting show, Makr! -- sonic-pi.net <-- runs supercollider synths, but lets you program it in a basic-ish language (very good!)
Spikey BXL: Thanks Mark and happy new year!
herb.nyc: Be positive. Thx for reminding me (as I veer negative too much). And thx for doing techtonic program. Happy new year to you, and all.
he can jog: I'm also so happy to Andrew featured here :)
Webhamster Henry: Happy 25th anniversary of Y2K! brianwoodbury.com...
Ken From Hyde Park: Thanks, Mark. See you in year N = N + 1.
Dean: That's a bogus history. "Computer" meant the person who made calculations back in the 17th century.
Fredericks: Socialize the costs: privatize the profits.
Will thee SG OCNY: My mother in law used to code punch card programs at Western Union
PaulRobeson1924: Give
Up your vows
drew: Open source software (OSS) has been embraced by big tech companies and is another way they drain wealth from us now. OSS socializes the cost of software and allows those giants to privatize the profits.
It's a far cry from Richard Stallman's "free software," focusing on freedoms for people, not "free as in beer."
Bas NL: Thanks Mark and Andrew! Have a great New Year all!
Fredericks:
↳ Dean @6:55
They were women, no?erik: My uncle was a computer - he calculated if the highway department was being billed correctly by the contractors in the 50's to 70s.
Noir Lover: At least make the left brained coders take a corporate improv class.
erik: I write code as part of my living, if we are not reducing toil in the users life, we aren't doing the job right.
chresti: Thanks Mark and all!
joe_rosevear: Thanks, Mark and Andrew!
Deano de los Muertos: Thanks Mark
drew: Yes, most computers used to be women before Burroughs, IBM, et al. replaced them.
yippie: i also heard that one of the first programmable computer like devices was used to weave, which is historically known to be a good job for women
Fredericks:
↳ drew @6:58
William F.?joe_rosevear: Any Bash coders out there?
bleubombersune: Mark great interview. All stray safe and be well Enjoy the rest of 2024. Fortran is my bag
ifny: Absolutely loved everything about everything about everything in today's show. As per usual! Didn't get to hear the whole episode but can't wait to download it for wardriving. Looking forward to reading the comments later as well. Solidarity coding FTW <3
Mark Hurst:
↳ ifny @7:00
Thanks, ifny!Mark Hurst:
↳ bleubombersune @7:00
Thanks, bleubleubombersune: Mark thanks for all you provide in 2024
Mark Hurst: Hi all, thanks for the good comments this evening and all year in 2024. See you next year!
Will thee SG OCNY: Thank you Mark Hurst, Andrew, and all!!! Be well, Have a great New Year!!!
ifny: Best.Homework.Ever.
Ken From Hyde Park:
↳ joe_rosevear @6:59
Shell programming? I've done a little.joe_rosevear:
↳ Ken From Hyde Park @7:01
Cool.