I've been running GrapheneOS for 7 months now and I'm not going back. When I bought my Pixel 10 last year, I wasn't actually planning on trying Graphene for a while....until I noticed Google had force bundled a 'Wicked For Good' movie promo theme with the latest security update.

Ha! Me too! Exact same. Bought a Pixel 10. Intended to do the default Android for a while. But it was filled with ads for “Wicked” which had me looking at my phone with a sneer on my face I couldn't erase - as if someone had smeared feces all over it and threw it on my bed.

So I jumped straight to GrapheneOS, which was way easier and less extreme than I had been warned. So beautifully minimal, with no crap. Now my phone feels like a simple Linux (Void/Arch) PC. So wonderful.

Does it affect the photo quality? It used to require letting go of the default photo app and thus a downgrade in photo processing.

No, if you install the Google camera there is no difference in quality and by revoking network you don't lose privacy.

> by revoking network you don't lose privacy

Be careful, apps can still communicate with other apps, e.g. revoking the network permission doesn't stop apps from fetching and displaying ads over the network. I don't know enough about Android internals to understand the mechanisms behind it, but clearly there are ways for apps to exfiltrate data.

> Trying to use Network as a complete data exfiltration toggle isn't the intended purpose, and you should always consider apps within the profile being able to communicate for ALL data and access including permissions. It is not something only relevant to Network.

https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/4024-in-what-extent-can-app...

https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/2197

Eye opener. Thanks for the warning! GrapheneOS sandboxes all apps including GSF as far as I understand. It would be nice if full capabilities could be exposed or at least shown in the app settings. There is the "All permissions" view which has a "have full network access" item with the following details: `Allows the app to create network sockets and use custom network protocols. The browser and other applications provide means to send data to the internet, so this permission is not required to send data to the internet.` Does this mean the app has this permission and even without it can fully access the internet? If so the primary "network" permission is very misleading. I wish for a smartphone-like device which installs apps with `cap_drop: ALL` by default. I wish for a government which would support such a standpoint and "assist" companies not able to provide a service which require intrusive data gathering. Either that or we're all just one big happy family with no secrets and no jealousy and no drama. sigh

Every Android app can do IPC with Android apps in the same profile. So an app without Network Access could cooperate with an app with Network Access to communicate with the outside world. Of course, most notably, a lot of apps communicate with Play Services and people generally leave on network access for Play Services to avoid breaking to much stuff.

There has been talk of developing 'IPC scopes', similar to how there are contact scopes.

To my knowledge, any app can just instruct the installed browser (Google Chrome, Vanadium, Firefox...) to open http[s]://tracker.evil-ad-network.example/?installedId=012345.

I don't have any Google or closed source apps with network permission, but thank you for sharing that quote I haven't seen that before.

I mean...... Google Camera has slightly different approach to low light photos and much better panorama mode, which means you can just install it and use with network access denied.

I mainly use native camera (good in most cases, can be brought up immediately with double power button press, from locked), Google camera (rarely), BlackMagic for when I need control over videos and ProShot when I need control over images (the last one might be hard to install - it's a paid app (I'm a paid user, this is how I got it), but not long time ago the moron of the developer made the app "incompatible" with devices without Google surveillance buttplug claiming it will prevent people pirating it form opening support cases....???).

So you can have multiple camera apps. Thankfully Google is not Samsung or Sony, and all the apps have full access to the cameras.

That really pissed me off when I found the only app that can access the full output of the sensor on Samsung is their own shitty app. WTF.

That sounds like the answer is actually yes: we're not talking about the lack of a camera app, but the lack of a camera app that knows the details of the usually-proprietary camera firmware

You can install both the regular GCam as well as third party mods. Actual GCam feels worse to me.

Problem with stock Google camera app is that it made horrible HDRlike images even with HDR turned off. You cannot adjust amount of reduced highlights and increased shadows which makes images unrealistic with lack of depth.

What you are describing is not Google’s alturism but keeping competition in check. If Google didn’t “allow” GrapheneOS it opens up a new market segment for other smartphone manufacturers. Apple really cashed in on privacy for a few years so it’s not unfathomable that Xiaomi or someone else goes all in on “privacy focused android” in absence of pixel+graphene combo.

Edit: Apparently Motorola is doing just that.

I don't think any Chinese company can pull the privacy card. They're bound by their government to spy on their customers just like American ones are.

Otherwise Huawei would have already jumped into that gap. They have their own Google-independent OS now so they could have marketed it to privacy enthusiasts where the lack of Google services would have been a positive not a negative.

> Xiaomi or someone else goes all in on “privacy focused android” in absence of pixel+graphene combo

Xiaomi? Privacy?

> Apple really cashed in on privacy for a few years

Apple didn't "cash in", their marketing dept made sure privacy/security engineering got just enough budget to pull off miracles & then spend even more to successfully make the public forget about the very nasty Celebgate.

TBF if Google locked down the devices like that it would be a GPL violation. Not their first or whatever but still, there's a reason for them not to do that beside "being nice"

Would it? IANAL, but AIUI the only GPL component is Linux on GPLv2 which requires providing code but not giving the ability to install it

Yes. GPLv2 specifically contains a clause that you must provide "scripts to control compilation and installation"

Source you can't compile or install onto the device wouldn't be very useful.

Not really. Tivo did that eons ago. Whether you view this as a "flaw" or "feature" of GPLv2 it's ultimately why GPLv3 now exists.

The Linux kernel developers see what Tivo did as a "feature" rather than a "flaw" and refuse GPLv3.

It's also because so many Linux developers are on the payroll of big tech. Look at all the submissions. 95% are just big tech. And look at the key people in the Linux Foundation. All a bunch of business suits with compromised motives. Serving their company above the community. There's only a few unencumbered people in there now.

Linux is no longer the community-driven choice. It's big business with billions hanging on the line. The grassroots origins are long over.

TiVo never prevented installing your own build in the device. They only prevented running their proprietary app on top of it when you had done so.

And how many options are there exactly? How many of them are capable of at least making and receiving a phone call without any issues 99% of the time?

While I agree with your general sentiment, I feel necessary to acknowledge that it's just not there (yet?). GrapheneOS is a great option if you want to have a fully working and secure device.

Years ago I looked into GrapheneOS, and I ultimately didn't go with it because, at least at the time, they only supported pixel phones (specifically pixel phones that Google actively had security updates for). I realized that if I got that OS, I would be at the mercy of Google supporting the device in order to continue using GrapheneOS.

In the end I just opted out of the android ecosystem altogether and went with a flip phone that I used as a hotspot for an iPod touch (we only used over VPN with locked down DNS and nothing google related).

My privacy lasted about two weeks, because unfortunately Spotify was able to fingerprint that device to Facebook.

I would highly recommend LineageOS. Supports non-Pixel phones, some of them many years old (although now that I double check, the Galaxy S3 and OnePlus One aren't on the devices list anymore, I guess they do stop supporting old stuff eventually...). The OnePlus 5 is still supported and was released in 2017. For anything older than that, I guess I'd recommend looking into postmarketOS.

> at least at the time, they only supported pixel phones

At the time? They still are the only devices officially supported.

Having your freedom be tied to a handful of devices from Google, is a massive supply chain risk.

There is no FOSS modem. The baseband is a separate computer operating on a lower level than the OS.

Your provider can run arbitrary code there.

I thought the PinePhone community had succeeded in making custom firmware for the modem in the PinePhone, though I'm not sure of the legality of actually using it. Plus both PinePhone and Librem 5 had a killswitch to disconnect the modem at least.

Your point is valid and yeah, it's a never-ending fight just to keep the control we have. Things like the Play Protect API and loads of Android apps being coupled to Play Services is it's own big challenge we're stuck with just to stay within the Android ecosystem

iOS is also going into this direction, just open the AppStore, it’s all the cheapest most horrible apps. Temu (shop like you don't give a s* about the planet), addictive AI Waifu’s (who needs human interaction anyway), clean your stuff but fake-time-wasting style (it's free dopamine!), search option’s first hit is often scammy (ie search for MS Authenticator). I feel that Steve ("If you want pr0n get an Android") would turn around in his grave from the sight of this.

Its just a matter of time before this cesspool will leak into the rest of the OS, AppStore shows us the temptation is too big for Apple. When my iPhone 12 mini dies it’s /e/OS or GrapheneOS for me. My devices should serve me and my thoughts are my own.

The AppStore has been like that for eons, but then again I don’t know a single person that uses it or checks the “content” posted there. It’s an utter waste of time.

I don’t think it will leak. After the U2 debacle, Apple might have learned not to push too hard on this front.

What about banking Apps? No problem there?

Some of them have ridiculous secur... compliance rules.

Big list, unfortunately one of my banks is not there (BCGE, Switzerland), most probably meaning I can't even login into ebanking in any other way since they have their properietary authentication app (CrontoSign, also not listed). Its rather small regional/cantonal bank so I get it, even though that region is Geneva, mecca of (some types of) banking.

Other banks that I use are there. Almost perfect...

Being missing means they haven’t been tested, not that they don’t work. Generally they probably only don’t work if they require the google play verification thingy

My banking apps were missing in list too, it doesn't mean that they are not working. You can test and report on that issue tracker about your banking app if it works :)

> What about banking Apps? No problem there?

Most banking apps work, but Google Pay/NFC payments won't work.

Google Pay may not work, but NFC payments through yiur bankapp probably do. They did for me.

My banks app complains will block me and tell me to disable developer mode, but if I turn it right back on after launching the app it won't complain for maybe another week. The post that really annoys me, though, is that if you don't set up biometric unlock they will not allow you to use the extended login cookie, so you need to put in your password every time, most don't work with password managers either (whether intentionally or not).

Don't recall my old nexus devices having ads in the OS. Disappointing where Google has taken this.

Technically they already did a built in ad with Android KitKat. Mostly benign, but I do remember being at an Android event and KitKats samples being given out to everyone. As well as KitKat wrappers being branded with the Android logo for a while.

> [...] until I noticed Google had force bundled a 'Wicked For Good' movie promo theme with the latest security update.

This is how users learn to not update anything.

When I got a new phone last year, I purposely got a Pixel (open box 9a) to put GrapheneOS on it immediately. Been happy living the de-Googled Android life since.

I was sad that I had to go through the OOBE setup on the stock image to unlock the bootloader. At least it doesn't force an internet connection and login, unlike Windows.

If it's any consolation, the wipe* requirement before unlocking the bootloader is generally a good thing, even if it's inconvenient. Someone who is targeting your personal data gets access to your encrypted phone, either by stealing it or in an evil maid situation. They unlock the bootloader and install privileged code that helps them recover the symmetric encryption key or intercept your PIN. Then they either have your data or wait for you to enter the PIN. In theory recovery shouldn't be possible (access to the key depends on a secure element that rate limits brute-force attacks), but security bugs do happen. Wiping* your data before removing the bootloader's signing requirement is an extra layer of protection.

*It doesn't actually wipe your data; it just destroys the symmetric key, making the data permanently unreadable.

AFAIK you can't unlock bootloader without wiping the data, that's my experience from last 15 years unlocking bootloaders on various phones

so it's kinda pointless to wipe data prior wiping them again during the bootloader unlocking process

We're saying the same thing. The bootloader unlocking process includes a step that destroys the FDE key.

While the OOBE of the stock image doesn't force an Internet connection, the ability to unlock the bootloader does - whether you can do it or not depends on the phone manufacturer's desire, and Android for some reason uses an Internet connection to check that.

My understanding is that it is impossible to unlock the bootloader on a new recent (Android 7+ at least; possiblt earlier) Android phone until it has connected to the Internet. After that, the ability to unlock the bootloader is permanent.

Yep, on older phones it was certainly possible without an Internet connection.

On the Nexus 5, you could just `fastboot oem unlock` right out of the box, install TWRP (custom "recovery") and install CyanogenMod/LienageOS, without ever booting the stock ROM.

On my Moto G4 Play and Moto X4, you had to get an unlock code from the Motorola website (based on the phone serial number I think) and waive some warranty terms, but once retrieved at least the phone didn't need to be online to unlock the bootloader.

The process on the newer Pixels is disappointingly intrusive, like basically everything Google has done for the last decade.

I misspoke when I said Android 7+, my apologies; I was thinking of my Pixel 7, which runs Android 13.

If it is any consolation it became intrusive on pretty much every single brand nowadays, if they at least offer bootloader unlocking option.

...I feel a bit silly. When I said "Android 7+", I was thinking of my Pixel 7, which runs Android 13, so "Android 13+" is what I actually meant to say. Oops.

it should be possible on Sony and OnePlus phones and maybe other brands, though it can require obtaining code from internet on other device, but the device being unlocked itself doesn't need to have internet connection

Is it possible to install basic Google apps like Gmail, Calendar, Maps, Drive without googlifying the whole phone?

I'm not looking to fully de-Google but I want Google as apps and not my OS.

I run a litany of Google (and other corporate/business apps) apps in Private Space under the owner's profile, which is only unlocked when I need it for something. That space's connection can go out over a WireGuard tunnel if I need those apps to be on any specific networks, while the rest of the phone's traffic is unaffected. The file systems stay functionally separate (although that's not a major concern given how file encryption is handled, plus the dream that is Storage Scopes), and that space has its own camera app and such.

The Owner profile itself doesn't run Google Play Services, so when that Private Space is locked and dormant it's effectively a degoogled stack.

Some will invariably argue that an old pocket-sized Linux PC with a cellular modem is a superior experience, and for some specific things it may well be, but GrapheneOS is the only viable option for someone looking for a user-respecting modern phone with very few limitations.

Yes, those are all compatible and the only way to use them is as regular sandboxed apps without any special access. Sandboxed Google Play can be installed in the profiles of your choice. Installing it in the main Owner user is a valid choice and doesn't at all ruin what GrapheneOS provides but you can make a dedicated work profile or Private Space for it to keep it separate. Only apps in the same profile can see it and use it, so you can control which apps will use their functionality depending on it that way.

I believe one of Graphene OS's main features is that they allow you to run google play services in a sandboxed environment, so you can run your standard google apps but without the standard android deal where google play services has unfetteted access to all your phone's location/data/etc info

Yes, you install the Google Play store via the GrapheneOS App Store. The OS comes with like 5 apps out of the box. The rest is up to you.

Biggest caveats that I've encountered: tap to pay via Google Wallet is a no go, Android Auto can be flaky, MDM managed work profiles don't work at the moment, and some apps that use the Google Play integrity API fail to validate and refuse to work (I've only encountered one app that fails, and plenty others that work.)

In general, I'm moving towards a de-Googled life and GrapheneOS is a great entrypoint towards that.

Android Auto is fully supported and shouldn't be any more flaky than it is on the stock OS. It's often flaky due to a bad USB connection or problematic implementation in the car. That's just how it is everywhere.

Google Wallet bans using anything other than an unmodified Google Mobile Services stock OS but there are alternatives in certain regions. In Europe, there are a lot of banking apps with tap-to-pay compatible with GrapheneOS and also Curve Pay. PayPal also has a limited tap-to-pay launch in Germany.

> MDM managed work profiles

Do you mean actual employer-spyware MDM work profiles? I suppose I never expected those to work.

Or do you mean things like Shelter, which uses work profiles and which I use to quarantine certain less-trusted apps?

Yes, I mean MDM work profiles. I play an IT guy at work and am a Google Workspace admin. We have it running in BYOD mode and it's actually not intrusive at all. The most sensitive data you can see as an admin is what apps are installed in the work profile, the phone's make + model, and the version of Android. Nothing like location, charge level, or anything outside of the work profile. I'm fine with running it on my personal device (I actually really like the way it functions), but it's borked on current versions of GOS.

How to say "I work for a company too cheapass to provide work devices".

Its all fun and games until the company gets hit with a lawsuit and discovery hits your phone and ALL your accounts, corporate and personal.

My end-run around Google's absurd unwillingness to certify GOS for Google Pay has been Garmin Pay, which has worked virtually everywhere I've ever tried it.

I'm hopeful that an OEM Motorola device will get certified for Google Pay.

Depends as bit on the country and bank. I also use Garmin Pay, but my bank only supports adding their credit card (not debit card) and a substantial portion of shops here only supports contactless payment through debit cards (credit cards have historically not been popular here).

So I get to use contactless payment at maybe 50% of the stores, which is annoying, because it's sometimes hard tot tell ahead of time.

Garmin Pay, Samsung pay if you have a compatible bank and card, PayPal in Germany and sometimes banks' own systems.

I had a very weird (bad) experience with Curve support so I couldn't recommend it.

NFC payments work, it's only Google who claims a phone not patched for 8 years is safe and secure, but phone with working hardware attestation and patched 6 months ahead of everyone else is insecure.

Curve Pay has worked well for me. Only good alternative as it doesn't depend on Google Play Services too

I extracted a chip (by dissolving the plastic in acetone) from my card and glued it to the wriststrap of my Pebble watch :)

When using contactless payment with my card, about 10% of the time the payment terminal tells me to insert the card to the reader slot instead and enter my PIN. I assumed this is a general security feature, but I guess it depends on the issuing bank then. This in Europe.

Yes you can use Curve pay.

Edit: Apparently that's Europe only? I'm in Europe so yeah. I didn't know that.

> I'm not looking to fully de-Google but I want Google as apps and not my OS.

This is entirely possible as other posters have explained. But I think it kind of defeats the point of Graphene, at least somewhat. Google is already profiling every aspect of your life by reading your emails, files, calendar, location, etc? In that case, OS access becomes moot.

I think that GrapheneOS makes most sense as part of a broader move towards privacy-respecting alternatives. I see the sandboxed Play Services as something useful perhaps in a secondary user profile, for the odd commercial app required and only available from the Play Store.

> In that case, OS access becomes moot.

Not really.

1. A non-Google OS can shut off background running access to Google apps, as well as supply Google apps with mock location data and other data

2. Google does other things to the OS that drive me nuts. Like allowing apps to restrict screenshots. I own the phone. If I want a screenshot, it should screenshot. This is not something for apps or Google to determine, and if the OS listens to me (not the app) it should allow screenshotting the display 100% of the time regardless of what the app cries about.

> Like allowing apps to restrict screenshots. I own the phone. If I want a screenshot, it should screenshot. This is not something for apps or Google to determine, and if the OS listens to me (not the app) it should allow screenshotting the display 100% of the time regardless of what the app cries about.

PREACH!

I hate this.

I agree and have moved mostly away from everything Google. But it's hard to replace maps. I know open street maps exists but it's hard to beat Google's data gathering.

I think OSM is way way better. It has every little path in the hills I walk. On Google Maps I'm just walking in a featureless green blob. OSM even has unofficial trails that are no more than a worn-down line in the brush.

Maybe for cars Google is better but I don't use those. But even there I see really detailed stats.

OSMAnd is a really great full featured mapping app. A real tool that you can configure in detail. And Organic maps is more simple and quick like Google maps.

There's just two things I still need Google for: most businesses don't bother keeping their opening hours etc updated on other mapping services, and in my city they have live data on the public transport network. This should really be mandated to be offered to open street map too.

I use Google Maps on Graphene. It works perfectly. You still get the benefits of the rest of the phone being degoogled. Just allow it to access your location only when you're actively using the app. When it's closed, it's closed.

There are players in the OpenStreetMap ecosystem attempting to change that. I know the team behind Organic Maps are actively working to make their app as viable as possible by sourcing appropriate data for example.

Organic Maps is amazing.

I actually find that it blows Google Maps out of the water for cycling (which is why/how I discovered it). I haven't really used it for driving much because my own car has a builtin nav, so can't really comment on that.

YMMV of course.

TIL there has been some drama about Organic Maps, what is the difference between OM and CoMaps?

Left from Maps.me to OM because of drama and intrusive features, do I need to leave OM for CM?

edit: seems CM shouldnt have that annoying gift icon

edit 2: CoMaps doesn't display (colored) hiking trails, so completely useless compared to Organic Maps, also can't even display tram lines after tapping on tram stop in Prague

I recommend Magic Earth. Free with traffic and navigation, and strong privacy promises (unlike Here Maps).

It used to be really good, and then it went to a subscription model, with a lot of back-and-forth uncertainty about the change. I suspect the rating reflects that.

I've settled on running CoMaps in the Owner profile, with Google Maps/Waze/etc. in the Owner profile's Private Space for when they're necessary.

I use CoMaps in the owner profile with Android Auto. Only caveat is that even with Android Auto developer mode enabled, I still had to install CoMaps from Play Store to get it to show up in Android Auto.

Different scopes and purposes. Google Maps is made to find commercial activities and addresses, OSM is there to map the territory around.

Using Sandboxed Google Play doesn't defeat the purpose of using GrapheneOS and neither does using Google apps. It does not exist specifically to avoid Google apps or services. It exists to provide a highly private and secure OS retaining high usability and app compatibility. Being able to use sandboxed Google Play is an important part of what it provides. Many GrapheneOS users don't use it and many who do use it are only using it in a dedicated profile for a small subset of apps but that's not at all required to heavily benefit from GrapheneOS. Moving to more private apps/services over time does make sense but it isn't mandatory and users can choose what kind of compromises they wan to make.

The best alternatives are self-hosted, e.g. your own email, CalDAV, CardDAV, and file servers, with e.g. K9 as email client.

Yes absolutely.

You can install nonprivileged google stuff on the main account.

Alternatively you can setup a private space (accessible to the main user but mostly separate from the main system) with a few clicks in the settings.

If you prefer more friction / isolation you can setup a separate user where you can install the google stuff.

Memories of Apple force pushing a U2 album to everyone's iPod (or maybe iPhone) back in the day.

That was a hilariously tone-deaf incident, but it's hardly comparable. Google pushed ads. Apple gave you a free album.

For people with no other albums, Carplay was playing that U2 album automatically when they enter their car. So some people were forced to listen to it :-)

Seedvault is still woefully insufficient, but it sounds like there's work being done to replace it. I can't imagine the enterprise crowd will overlook that and I'm hoping the Motorola partnership enables faster development.

> Seedvault is still woefully insufficient

Ever since seedvault implemented local D2D API for app data availability and changed their repository format (inspired by restic's hashing) I've grown to trust seedvault enough that it's my sole phone backup.

Seems to schedule/backup/restore just fine, even cross-device. Gets all the apps and files I care about. Incremental runs are slow but efficient (<1MB transferred).

I have some UX gripes and would prefer if key and snapshot management was more flexible but the sentiment I see seems to be rooted in the earlier days when seedvault was more naive.

Look forward to a GOS-native solution all the same.

Happy GrapheneOS user here too since 2+ years now.

Small point of critique: it would be nice if it was a little bit easier to switch between personas, for example by simply scrolling to a different workspace. Because now the feature is mostly unused on my phone.

Yeah, I'm hanging on with GrapheneOS (on a Pixel) until their native-hardware (Motorola) phones come out, which hopefully will solve this. As I understand it, third-party (banks and so forth) app vendors have to accept their security attestation, which they don't right now, but (I hope) will with Motorola behind them.

Graphene is NOT a jailbroken/rooted OS, its a real secure unrooted, bootloader locked OS, and MS Authenticotor works just fine. If anything does not work its related to dependency of the App maker on a certain attestation google play services grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide

Root =/= insecure. You probably have administrator access on your home computer operating system, and can very likely do online banking via the web browser with no issues. A secure API is possible regardless of the host metal, operating system, or user permissions.

Do you refer to app-accessible root or user root access? The former is absolutely inherently insecure and compromises the security model of Android/GOS.

Root on computers is insecure. Malware can steal secrets from other applications. We're just used to it, but the Android security model is much better.

This does not play a role - even if you lock your bootloader Play Integrity Checks still fails, and that means you can't use certain apps, MDM and overall restricts your usage. Thank Google for that.

I hate how common it's become for companies to force you to install things on your personal phone. Even worse is some of them demand you install a MDM profile on your personal phone which feels 1000% over the line of reasonable.

I've just refused to install such things on my phone.

You want me to have email and teams/slack on my phone? Sorry, I won't install the spyware. Want to pay for me to have a second phone with it? Okay. No? Well then, I just won't have email on my phone.

Sure if you are in a strong stable position in life you can do that. The average person doesn’t want to rock the boat and cause troubles in their life so they install the invasive mdm profile.

It needs to be made illegal imo. The company should provide you a device if you need one for the job.

My company MDM doesn't consider GrapheneOS good enough to give me access to email/calendar - impasse?

Spyware aside - I think about data breaches, even if my phone is "secure/compliant".

Scenario: Your account gets compromised somehow. It's signed in to your personal phone. Company data gets leaked or ransomed.

Your phone and its contents are now evidence.

I think Google authenticator implements the standard OTP which lots of apps (including keepass) should support. Microsoft uses their own propietary crap

You can try to add the standard OTP even for Microsoft crap. If it asks you to register for mfa and opens the screen that says something about downloading the Microsoft authenticator app there is a small link at the bottom, letting you use another app. Then you get a qr code that you can scan with any other auth app.

I use a basic OTP password instead of Microsoft's ironically less secure (see SMS as 2FA) with my work MS account. Perhaps your org disabled it but it is definitely something a Microsoft account can do.

How's the P10 camera on graphene? Literally 90% of the reason I'm on a pixel is because I love the low-light smarts that the camera software has, but I don't know if I'll lose that with Graphene.

You can install the Google Camera, if you use sandboxed Google Play. It has all the same features AFAIK.

Banking 90+% of apps work. Some apps officially support GrapheneOS.

The vast vast majority of apps (99%+) are compatible and those that are broken is due to bugs in the apps which GOS catches, but these exploit protections can be disabled, and apps that use the monopolistic play integrity api.

The only apps that are permanently broken are those using the strongest play integrity api which is security theatre.

Here's a community created list of banking applications and their current status on GOS.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

This is not really about me, but understanding if these apps have issues running under the OS. These type of apps typically have extra "security" features.

Such as? If there is dependency on proprietary software, you can install it on GOS if you want and consider it more "safe".

What's the status of banking apps, Google / Microsoft authenticator, and Google Wallet? Those were the things preventing me from abandoning stock Android.

You can check this crowdsourced list for the compatibility of banking apps: https://github.com/PrivSec-dev/privsec.dev/blob/main/content...

Authenticators should work normally, as far as I know (unless Google Authenticator does anything special). Can’t say anything about Google Wallet. There might be more lists/forums where people share which setups are (not) working well for them.

In general, I had these concerns as well until a few months ago. But I am much more optimistic these days that things will just work well out of the box (have read many positive sentiments in blog posts and here on Hacker News).

I want to run graphene but I make android apps and need to test on device with a somewhat standard setup… login with google, etc. is this reasonable to do with graphene?

Yes. GrapheneOS maintains 99% app compatibility, and the 1% that is lacking is due to apps using incredibly misguided and nonsensical "antiabuse" mechanisms.

GrapheneOS is often better for testing apps due to it being trivial to test with and without google services, most of the hardening options can be used for debugging and provide a crash log to determine what failed, and there is an easily accessible log viewer available in app info.

Yes, GOS has excellent compatibility with Google. The play services are sandboxed like a normal app and work great.

Yes you can install and use it (I hold my passes, tickets and loyalty cards in there), BUT payments won't work for now because Google says malware-ridden Oreo handset is safe and secure, but phone without ad delivery network running in the privileged mode isn't.

There are alternatives for payments (scroll the thread, maybe look up on GOS discussion site).

No, unfortunately.

If you live in the EU then you can use curve pay which can tap to pay.

Why is no tap to pay significant enough to stop you from switching to a phone that is private and secure? You can just carry a card and tap—they're tiny.

It is my cheaper separate phone. Main phone is iPhone which I can test iOS on. Android is mostly for testing, and backup/utility on long trips.

Same, I've got a Pixel 9 and GrapheneOS works perfectly on it. I really love having full control over the OS on my phone and being able to decide what actually runs on it.

That Motorola phone that lets you install Graphene can not come soon enough. Pixel phones are not sold worldwide so it feels like they're gatekeeping security. I know that's not the case really, but there's very few ways to successfully degoogle otherwise.

> Pixel phones are not sold worldwide

Still boggles my mind the fact Google doesn't sell their phones worldwide. Obtaining a Pixel has proven to be quite difficult for me.

Not only obtaining but if you ever need warranty you're done. Just last week I went to a Samsung center and had my fold 6 fixed in 30 minutes, and these centers are everywhere around the world. Same thing with Apple, yet a 4.5 trillion dollar company can't ship and maintain a phone globally. It's so unserious.

And that's the unserious part, they really don't want anything to do with consumers despite making consumer products (gmail, Android, etc.) so you're always at the mercy of their automatic systems.

Google has historically always sucked at being a product company. Despite this, they're quite successful at it.

As the old joke goes: Microsoft is a software company, Apple is a hardware company, Google is an ads company.

Yeah. Could be difficult even if one is willing to forgo the warranty. My city has local repair services, they easily repaired my old Samsung phone. Servicing Pixels could be difficult even for them.

The inner screen built-in protector was peeling in the middle. It was out of warranty, but Samsung charged me 15$ which is very reasonable. The inner screen looks brand-new now, and I guess that's the benefit of these soft foldable screens - you can refresh the entire thing very easily.

It still boggles my mind that the most popular privacy OS requires Google manufactured hardware, that fact alone makes me not trust it at all.

GrapheneOS is not going to compromise on hardware security for the sake of spiting one specific company. GrapheneOS supports all viable platforms, and right now that is the pixel lineup. Additional device support requires OEMs step up their game, and so far, only Motorola is up to the task, and we should get Motorola devices with official GrapheneOS support next year.

There is nothing crazy about doing something properly.

GrapheneOS does not depend on all of the features of pixel phones. The baseline requirements GrapheneOS has are generic, they are not built upon or tied to what pixel phones provide. Pixels actually exceed the baseline rather than barely meeting them.

Other OEMs can make devices that meet the requirements, and Motorola is doing just that. We should get Motorola devices with official GrapheneOS support next year.

Phone hardware is a hellscape it doesn’t surprise me at all that they need to keep the number of supported devices small in order to deliver a decent product.

Despite Google's other failings, it was the OG supporter of data portability, and that spirit extends to its phones. No other phone manufacturer with wide distribution comes close. It's unfortunate that the people who design the hardware do such a poor job with the resources at their disposal.

Is it still the case that Android backups leave much to be desired when compared to iphone? Pretty much the only reason I use Apple is that I can switch to a replacement phone and it’s exactly the same state as the last backup.

It's ridiculous is what it is. It makes me deeply distrustful of the organisation behind Graphene that they would make such a crazy choice.

The intersection of phones that have unlockable bootloaders, public-ish driver blobs and decent hardware is tiny.

What other phone would you pick?

How do you reconcile that position with what Graphene OS lists as requirements for support, as linked by another commenter? https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

I’m not an expert, but all the listed points there sound reasonable. If indeed only the Pixels support them, well, it’s too bad there’s not other, similarly secure hardware out there.

I just moved away from GrapheneOS to Motorola because I decided I needed an audio jack again. There's definitely some annoying things about leaving, but at least now I can use again the three apps that didn't work for me on GrapheneOS...

Which phone and is it android then? Maybe I'm out of the loop on Motorola. I just bought a pixel, thinking of trying graphene. I was a bit miffed about the lack of jack until my partner pointed out I hadn't used the one on my old phone for over a year. I'd like to in the future though.

I use usb-c dac and it is honestly fine. you can get one with charging bypass and keep that one with the charger

Posting about Volla in a GrapheneOS thread is... I guess courageous?

They are kind of the opposite of GrapheneOS. Ancient kernel trees, ancient firmware bundles, etc. And since downstreams like /e/OS just take their kernels/firmware, they are ancient as well. Using Volla phones opens you up to a lot of known vulnerabilities.

Besides that, Volla is basically a marketing company (with some external contractors) that does Eurowashing. E.g. one of their phones (Quintus) is a phone designed by an Emirates company, produced by a Chinese ODM, marked up by 500 Euro by Volla (they probably turn some screws and flash the firmware to be able to call it 'from Germany'. You can get the same 719 Euro phone here for ~160 Euro:

https://www.amazon.ae/Android-Smartphone-Storage-Octa-Core-M...

I don't understand why people do free promotion for Volla, given that they are mostly snake oil salesmen.

I don't see anything they offer for security that's not also in AOSP/LineageOS/eOS/stock/etc.

Which is not to say that's not enough for most people, but why highlight them? It doesn't seem comparable to the laser-focus GrapheneOS has on security

Volla just Eurowashes/rebadges other low to midrange phones at a huge markup. E.g., the Volla Phone Quintus is:

https://www.amazon.ae/Android-Smartphone-Storage-Octa-Core-M...

(If you don't believe it from the identical specs and design, you can look at the committers in their kernel trees and it is basically maintained by Daria people.)

Their new Plinius model is just the Gigaset GS6 with a 250 Euro markup:

https://www.gigaset.com/gigaset-gs6/

At least this is made by a German company, though Gigset is Chinese-owned now.

At any rate, these are just rebadged phones and IIRC, but don't hold me to it, in both cases the original phones also support bootloader unlocking.

It takes more than an unlocked bootloader to make Linux boot on random phones and work properly (and ensuring all the radios, camera, audio, phone calls etc work), and Volla have achieved that with their phones. I could be wrong, but I don't think it was possible to get a fully functional Linux distro going on any of these rebadged phones before Volla got to them.

Volla is just forwarding the trees made available by their upstream ODMs. E.g. Gigaset publishes them:

https://github.com/Gigaset-dev

I am not sure about the Daria Bond, but in Ubuntu Touch (which seems one of the very few Linux systems that supports the Daria Bond, ahem, Quintus), most of it seems to be the work of LineageOS developers (probably for generic Mediatek support, since it's a run-off-the-mill Mediatek phone), with some changes from Daria people on top of it.

So, I think you are giving credit to Volla that should go to the upstream ODMs and Lineage.

Or just go to the Volla about page:

https://volla.online/en/about/

It's just sales, marketing, and customer support people.

Ubuntu Touch is drastically less private and secure than AOSP let alone GrapheneOS. Volla's devices don't come anywhere close to meeting the update and security requirements for GrapheneOS. GrapheneOS is a Linux distribution much closely following along with the Linux kernel LTS releases, unlike those devices. It also regularly moves to new Linux kernel LTS branches. Pixels are in the process of moving to the 6.12 LTS branch with Android 17 QPR2. 6.18 is currently in the early stage of stabilization.

Ubuntu Touch (or any Linux distro for that matter) offers drastically more freedom than GrapheneOS or any other Android distribution. Some people care more about freedom than so called "security", and I don't know about you, but I'll take freedom any day.

Freedom to get a stroke from an incomplete toy OS?

Snark aside, desktop Linux userspace (or gnu Linux, call it how you want) is nowhere near production ready. And even for the more general point, giving out root willy-nilly is not more freedom. It's more like letting your child play on the 5th floor of a half-constructed building that's about to be exploded. Your kid can enjoy their time just as much in the safe forest trail.

Not everything needs to be "production ready". And giving out root willy-nilly is freedom. It's my device, I should get to decide how I want to use it and not have artificial restrictions put on my be by someone else. If I want to rm -rf /, I should be able to do just that.

How can you be free when you're not private or secure?

Grapheneos is fully open source and comes with 0 Google services.

>so called "security"

Grapheneos is widely recognized as one of the most secure operating systems.

> How can you be free when you're not private or secure?

Are you serious? Have you even seen the state of modern operating systems compared to the operating systems of the 80s and 90s? I've had way more fun and learnt lot more about computers messing around with OSes that let you did whatever the hell you wanted to. Modern OSes have sacrificed a lot in that name of security.

As for privacy, that's a completely separate topic. You can have privacy on a OS which offers freedom, depends on what "privacy" you're taking about.

That is a vague, meaningless statement. What sort of privacy are we taking about? What sort of security? What's the target? What's the attack vector? What's the environment? What's your threat model?

Without all of those details, your statement is meaningless.

Those are much less private and secure than the Android Open Source Project on Pixels without the major privacy and security improvements of GrapheneOS. Those aren't privacy or security hardened devices.

I've been using Graphene on my Pixel 7a for about a year and I'm happy I made the switch. For sure it is a bit rougher than using Google's OS, but not enough to make me regret it.

The main things I miss are (1) when I'm entering text I can't swipe left and right on the space bar to scroll the cursor left and right, and (2) the texting app doesn't just attach reaction emojis to a message -- it quotes the whole message and prefixes it with something like "Marty like blahblahblah". When there is a whole family text chain it isn't uncommon to see the same message 7 times as various people react to the original message.

Anyway, I looked at Google's Android 17 blog and yikes:

"With deep integration between hardware, software and AI, we’re transforming Android from an operating system to an intelligence system. It's about delivering new helpful experiences that anticipate user needs, and it brings more opportunities for engagement with your apps."

https://android-developers.googleblog.com/2026/06/Android-17...

> The main things I miss are (1) when I'm entering text I can't swipe left and right on the space bar to scroll the cursor left and right,

GrapheneOS is compatible with the vast, vast majority of Android apps, so you can use GBoard or FUTO keyboard (which I recently switched to from GBoard), to get the ideal experience.

FUTO recently revamped their swipe to type model and it's now more accurate than GBoard in their testing. I am a huge swipe type person, so this is what held me in GBoard's clutches, but now I'm free.

The dataset is open source and anyone can add to it if you're on a mobile device here: https://swipe.futo.org

And you can learn about it here: https://swipe.futo.tech

> the texting app doesn't just attach reaction emojis to a message -- it quotes the whole message and prefixes it with something like "Marty like blahblahblah". When there is a whole family text chain it isn't uncommon to see the same message 7 times as various people react to the original message.

Google messages, the experience you get on PixelOS, is also compatible with GrapheneOS, but you will have to afford network access to sandboxed google play, among other things. I couldn't tell you specifically, but it will work out of the box before you restrict anything. Many people choose to use this setup because it opportunistically adds e2ee for chats between iPhones and other Androids using Google messages.

There's also other SMS apps, but I focused on switching people to Signal so I barely ever use SMS.

Once I replaced the default apps, GrapheneOS became a premium phone experience.

Yes! FUTO keyboard, then go into VOICE INPUT → MODELS → Explore Voice Input Models → English-244: “Best for the most accurate results, but more demanding.”

The voice recognition is built on Whisper, and is amazing. You can speak conversationally for a long time and it gets everything right, with smart decisions based on context.

My stupid thumbs text no more.

I just did. I had been using FUTO voice, but I see that FUTO keyboard also supports voice input, so I'm not sure if I should delete FUTO voice as being redundant now.

I don't believe it's necessary, it's move of an "if you want a dedicated voice keyboard, the UX is a little better" option. I don't have both installed though, as anecdotal evidence.

Thanks for your thoughts. I use FUTO voice usually, but there are situations where typing out a short message is better -- eg, in a restaurant or doctor's office or someplace where voice input might bother other people.

I've found graphene's keyboard far more error-prone than the stock android keyboard, but I also don't care to learn swipe to type.

The feature I'm missing is simply that rubbing my finger left or right on the spacebar in text mode causes the cursor insertion point to move left or right on in the text I'm entering. It makes it sooo much easier to correct typos.

FUTO and GBoard has the feature you're describing and I use it all the time. Pretty much anything you miss from Pixel UI can be attained by simply installing Google's app from the playstore.

> I've found graphene's keyboard far more error-prone than the stock android keyboard, but I also don't care to learn swipe to type.

Graphene's keyboard is the stock AOSP keyboard. Most Android systems ship with their own one instead of it, but that's the one that is built into the system by default.

The problem I still have with the futo one is that it can't swipe type in multiple languages without switching every time. Gboard can do that. I use 3 languages intertwined constantly so I need that.

So I still use gboard but block its internet access.

Problem (1) is a keyboard problem, not a GrapheneOS problem. Graphene comes with the stock AOSP keyboard which is very basic, but you can absolutely replace it. Personally I'm using the FUTO Keyboard and it does have that feature, as well as swiping, speech to text and much more.

Maybe you can try installing another SMS app for problem (2)? Much like the stock keyboard, the stock Messaging app is just the AOSP app. Honestly it works fine for me so I don't have a recommendation.

Regarding 2: that is literally how SMS reactions work. Apps that recognize it just interpret it as "put that emoji on that message". It is unfortunate that it doesn't do that tho.

RCS is different, which you can sometimes get working by installing Google Messages¹, which is essentially the only app that supports RCS any more. Google runs essentially all the servers too.

---

1: There are no third-party RCS apps² because, unlike SMS which has an API and a shared database on the device, RCS is extremely locked down and it's literally impossible to create one in stock Android. This is also why it's only "sometimes" on GOS, the details are very complicated and rather enraging.

2: Samsung had one, but they're shutting it down in favor of Google Messages. A tiny number of other devices / telecoms have their own too, but they're rapidly shutting down as well. RCS is very nearly fully controlled and implemented by Google now, except for iMessage as a client only, for now, and there's no encryption between iMessage<->Google Messages last I checked (but there apparently is between Google Messages... but no normal person can really verify that because it's Just Google Everywhere).

I agree with this post and add one anecdotal data point.

I had installed graphene os on a pixel but after a couple months and a couple loops between lineage, stock, and graphene, I eventually settled on stock android. I have group messages with family and some of the family are on apple, some on android, and RCS only works with google messages and google services installed.

It's infuriating that I can't send RCS messages unless google allows me to. I want to go back to email or MMS. Supposedly after a month (!!) RCS group chats will fall back to MMS, but that was not my experience. Also, if you turn RCS on/off you may get kicked out of group messages [0].

[0] https://support.google.com/messages/answer/7189714?hl=en

Yeah, it's pretty awful tbh. I generally recommend disabling RCS, after learning a lot more about it - it feels like a hostile grab at global messaging at this point, heavily entrenched by telecom agreements. Use Signal or something instead.

Initially there were some promising details planned, but much of it hasn't panned out, and plus now it's Just Google™. Like, roughly everyone has heard that RCS brings E2EE privacy, right? Would it surprise you to learn that it was only added to the spec around a year ago, and nobody has it implemented yet? Google has their own thing between Google users, Apple has their own iMessage-only thing, and they both drop crypto when you cross the streams because it isn't in the spec. And neither is practically auditable (allowing auditing is part of the spec btw - have you seen that UI?).

And that's before even touching on the utterly massive amount of the spec that's clearly designed for businesses only, to send you highly customizable interactive UI. Which you can't use as a person. Or build your own app for. https://developers.google.com/business-communications/rcs-bu... / https://rcsforbusiness.google/

It just does not smell good. It's not in our best interests to let it win.

Yeah RCS always has been an embrace extend extinguish thing. The carriers were super pissed to lose their SMS revenue to WhatsApp and iMessage so they came up with this shit to be an active partner in the loop again, and they can bill for it again. Consumers didn't fall for that and it died off.

Unfortunately Google revived it but it's a very poor standard for interoperability. Not only because the lack of true E2EE in the open spec but also because you need to be a blessed party to run an RCS server and communicate with others. You can't run your own or choose a party you trust. It's either your carrier if they bother to run one, or Google.

It's just another power grab. Don't fall for its 'open' guise. They want you to use it so they can make you dependent and lock you in again. There's nothing open about it. If you want privacy, use signal. If you also want an open and federated network, use matrix or xmpp with OMEMO.

> Yeah RCS always has been an embrace extend extinguish thing. The carriers were super pissed to lose their SMS revenue to WhatsApp and iMessage so they came up with this shit to be an active partner in the loop again, and they can bill for it again. Consumers didn't fall for that and it died off.

I strongly disagree with this negative characterization. RCS was a replacement protocol for the extremely outdated SMS and MMS protocols. Apple only supported SMS/MMS chat with Android users in iMessage, which meant that cross-platform chats were strongly limited in many ways (e.g. the mentioned emoji reacts), which caused many US American kids to be socially punished for having an Android phone, which is likely part of the reason why Apple is so dominant in the US now, especially among younger users. (Other countries mostly don't use iMessage/SMS, but something like WhatsApp, so they never had this problem.)

RCS was the solution to these iMessage/SMS/MMS incompatibilities. It took years for Google to convince Apple to adopt it, and Apple only announced doing so after EU regulations were on the horizon. There were even internal emails which revealed that Apple used their iMessage dominance and the poor Android compatibility via SMS/MMS to boost their market share in the US.

In summary, RCS is great because it is both a modern chat protocol, unlike SMS and MMS, and an open standard, unlike the closed iMessage and WhatsApp protocols, and available cross platform, unlike iMessage.

RCS is not modern. E2EE is only an addon and it's not open. As others have mentioned it's not even available with interoperation. And it was really invented by carriers for exactly that purpose: To regain SMS/MMS revenue. But at this point here in Europe SMS usage between people had vanished anyway (except for spam and poor 2FA implementations)

And the social problems are not a technology problem, it's more a result of the harsh competitive American society. Without blue bubbles there'll be something else that kids will be bullied for. Only when the whole concept of "everyone except the #1 winner is a loser" is dropped this will disappear.

And Google didn't try to convince Apple to do this out of the goodness of their heart. Like I said most of the protocol (except the E2EE) is open but the implementation is not. It gives google even more control. You also won't be able to use it on a PC without a google account which is a big dealbreaker compared to Whatsapp and Signal. iMessage isn't a thing here in Europe anyway (neither is SMS/MMS).

Yes. It was kind of a bumpy road getting there, but I haven't had any problems for the last 6 months or so.

Other people have noted that you can switch out the keyboard and SMS app (which I did).

My single (minor) issue with GrapheneOS is the adaptive screen brightness. On the stock Android OS on a Pixel I'd mess around with the sliders for a week or two on a new phone and then it learned what I liked. Now it has a few set values, one of which is always too dim for me in darker conditions so I have to mess with the slider each and every time. I don't believe there's a way of fixing that.

Other than that I'm glad I switched, especially when I read about new "features" they add that I know I'd hate.

I used to do this but I found it downloads needed language files in the background. So every time it updated, I would clear all the app data, open it again on something innocuous, like a text file, toggle each language I used. Not knowing how long it would take, I'd wait until each seemed to be behaving, then disable network permission. I still don't trust that it doesn't send data off via Play Services.

Now I use Heliboard with the swiping library added. It's not perfect, but has improved, and at least it can give more than three correction options (long–press centre suggestion with ellipsis below).

I really miss Keymonk — two–finger swiping, accurate, and no crap.

I do usually this, but recently on older phone (using it temporarily while I buy new) I had to reinstall it and found out, it didn't provide any word suggestions for ant language other than English and even gesture input for other languages didn't work, so at least during initial setup it must have (now?) internet connection most likely to download dictionaries (I thought they used to be included in past, never noticed this before), after allowing the connection, setting up and then disabling the connection, it works fine

Because the code is not provided under a free/open-source license, and therefore does not meet the requirements for the main F-droid repo.

I used to dread the promised deep system integration of AI, but honestly after setting Claude up on a server box and having it do sysadmin stuff for me that I've been putting off for ages I see the vision. I don't really want to mess with the details of working through system orchestration tasks, I want to say "spin up this service" and start using it, "change my config so X happens" and it does, and knows what needs restarting to pick up changes and all the fiddly knobs and configs that need syncing and their bespoke formats. I think Nix tried to unify this for people, but it arrived too close to LLMs so a lot of value (in this dimension) has been delivered by other means.

The point is, I'd like to be able to set up services, configuration, and run tasks on my phone this way too, ideally offline. If this system integration is what gives me programmatic control of my most personal computer and the ability to finally set up decent automated tasks and workflows then so be it.

The vendors are never going to give you control over your computer no matter what vision they try to sell you on. The whole point, from their perspective, is to use their control of your computer to gain more control over you, which they hope to then exploit for profit.

Idk I feel like Ansible and RHEL aim to give you that control in a way that’s not typically corporate icky in the way you describe but ymmv. Granted both are products based on FOSS; so in the broader sense that pattern may hold

Right: Look at the ways Google has persistently taken away user-control and autonomy on the OS level.

Why would we expect the same company to exhibit a completely opposite philosophy as they add LLM features?

The thing is they don't setup their "intelligence system" for the type of task you wanna do. They are integrating it for tasks like "buy me a plane ticket for my next holidays", "order diner for me, the usual"...

Yes, Google famously uses their most advanced technology to make your life easier and not to look up your nose with a scanning electron microscope

Jumped to GrapheneOS a few months ago. Works great. The keyboard was bad but you should install FUTO, as some other comments recommend.

My only issue with it has been a few apps not working correctly, and not the ones I expected. I did my research before hand and knew that my banking apps would work, thinking those would be the main challenge.

Turns out the bike-sharing system in my city, Madrid, won't work. I ended up installing Google Play services (that run sandboxed in Graphene, but still wanted to avoid), and it works sometimes, but mostly doesn't. I use these bikes a few times a week, so this is a major hassle, and I end up carrying my ancient iPhone with me sometimes just for this.

This and Trade Republic have been my only two problems. Happy otherwise, but do your research before switching, and don't assume only the apps you expect to be problematic will be.

Why don't you connect with the makers of Madrid and see what they can do about it? That is sometimes the best way to fix these types of incompatibilities.

I took the plunge into GrapheneOS a week ago. I picked up a new Pixel10 Pro and never even tried the stock OS (except to unlock the boot loader).

I've got almost everything working the way I want. There were a few non-essential banking apps that won't install. The most annoying problem I had is when I tried to install Strava, which I cannot get working. The app installs, but it will not let me sign in. I guess I need a replacement, because I use that app a lot.

The most hilarious is McDonald's app - it refuses to work without Play Integrity check. I wonder what braindamaged reasoning is behind this. Do they want to position themselves as a bank or something?

I recall a year or so ago, there's been a story about someone hacking McDonalds loyalty program, with that app doing something stupid like storing your balance on the client or something. It seems instead of firing whatever offshore sweatshop that made that, they just doubled down on "mitigations".

Huh, it works just fine in the UK. Wonder if they have different builds (or completely different apps) for different regions. Or maybe it's the GrapheneOS compatibility layer that makes it work? Not sure.

Play Integrity has several levels. GrapheneOS MEETS_BASIC_INTEGRITY, which I believe only requires a locked bootloader and no superuser.

There's also been some discussion of spoofing MEETS_DEVICE_INTEGRITY, since before Android 13 it didn't rely on a TPM, and many apps don't want to lock out older devices, but it's been decided against it [0].

[0] https://github.com/GrapheneOS/os-issue-tracker/issues/1986

I run Strava on my Pixel 10 Pro Fold running GrapheneOS. IIRC you need to have Google Play Store installed (with zero permissions, preferably) to make Strava work.

I was using GrapheneOS for years, until the battery died while I was on an important call, trying to get someplace. Plugged it in, but little did I remember that I had installed OS update that was pending app optimization phase that happens during next boot.

GrapheneOS has some hardening in this phase, which as I understand, essentially has to rebuild all apps without cache.

And as I have a ton of apps, I was parked for 30 minutes waiting my phone to boot up.

And because of this app optimization thing, I always delayed OS update finalizations, which probably isn't the best thing.

Unfortunately, GrapheneOS recommendation to this was to have fewer apps. Had to let it go after that.

App optimization happens in the background now, and pops a notification when it is done, asking to restart all open apps.

Oh, then the biggest pain point I've had is now resolved. I should give it another go.

I've seen payments being another problem - but Garmin watch handles it for me. And paying with a watch becomes a conversation starter with merchants for some reason.

I'm not sure how Garmin works, but for instance with Google Wallet-compatible watches, you need a phone where wallet can run. I've had this setup for a year where I loaded the cards from another phone and used a watch to pay.

However Wallet didn't like this setup. Tokens expired at varying delays, sometimes a day, sometimes a week or payment failed without reasons.

Nowadays, I just use my bank's app which work fine on GOS.

You only need a phone to add the card to the watch. After that it works without a phone.

I was actually very surprised Garmin supported the country I'm in. They don't even support the language script, I get squiggles, but payments - better than Google Wallet.

I have multi day battery life and I only charge to 80% so it was either user error or a hardware failure.

GOS has much better battery than stock pixel ui because of less services and telemetry.

> GrapheneOS recommendation to this was to have fewer apps

Sounds reasonable. People tend to install way too many apps on their phones and than blame the phone about short battery life or too many notifications.

Having many apps will not affect battery life on Android in any meaningful way. Actively using them will. Apps can't just sit there and run in background, unless you explicitly gave them that permission.

Android also takes permissions away from apps after they haven't been used in a while anyway.

So most of the battery consumption will be from the apps that you actively need and use. Android's battery usage screen backs this up.

The metro app I installed when I was on a trip in Istanbul is still on my phone, but it's dormant. Yes, I should definitely uninstall it, but I really can't be bothered to do this all the time. On stock Android, phone takes care of this for me. On GrapheneOS, either I take that responsibility or face the consequences - which I don't really want.

i have mine set to auto-restart for updates and i shortened the 'restart when idle for n hours' value so it usually just does everything at night

I did this half a year ago and it was fine for me. One of the benefits is of course privacy. For instance, I noticed that ads get completely out of touch which proved to me that I'm being tracked less.

Also never have that feeling anymore that my phone is spying on me.

Any iPhone user with a measure of privacy knowledge will experience the same.

I'm using NextDNS for DNS level ad blocking as well as iOS built in tools, and I get ads for women's hygiene products (I'm male), travel, dining, server parts, cars, and everything in between.

The main difference between Android and iOS is (or used to be?) that Android typically phones home with everything, frequently visited locations, calendar appointments, voice commands. On iOS most of that runs on-device. Siri voice to text/text to voice runs on device, various "ai" things in photos runs on-device, frequently visited locations are device local.

Apple still pushes ads to you. I can't recall how many times I saw ads in the App Store, and how many times they tried to push me into subscribing to whatever nonsense their executives' KPIs demanded (Apple Arcade+? News+? Music+?). No matter how many times I told Apple "No," they just kept pushing it. And now ads are coming to Apple Maps as well.

GrapheneOS has zero ads in the OS and main services.

What are North American people doing for replacing contactless payment? Last time I checked, the solution was to use Curve but it only works for Europe.

In general I'd agree.

Curve demand a "video selfie" and I've never been comfortable with sending companies such biometric data.

It's infuriating that they won't do this for non Google Android. It's in the best interest of both the bank and the card owner. Credential theft risk goes down to basically zero when backed by a fingerprint authenticated virtual card.

I'm sure contrats between Google and banks provide the financial guarantees that not open-source project would be able to. Unless governments mandate there's zero interest from banks to put extra effort into building for unpopular solutions

What do you mean by credential theft? Stealing the numbers on the card or a malicious person triggering the contactless payment?

Stealing the numbers. Could've been someone taking a photo of the card out of sight. I honestly don't track my card that well when I'm out cause it's easy to have a transaction voided if it's legit not me. Then again cameras are everywhere now.

Banks don't want the headache of supporting multiple weird phone OSes and it's understandable. As long as they don't require running an apple/google-certified device and OS I don't care.

> Banks don't want the headache of supporting multiple weird phone OSes and it's understandable.

Commercially, this makes sense.

I am surprised that most nations of the whole world are fine with every citizen relying on one of two american companies for their lifestyle interactions though. I would have thought more nations would legislate their banks must support other options for sheer sovereign resilience.

> Commercially, this makes sense.

Does it though? The people in this thread are like "just use a card". Well I've done that for years and had my card skimmed, lost, and stolen over the years. The cost wasn't trivial either. The credit card company knocked it off my balance but also lost on sales when I didn't have my card while they issued me a new one. It cost the credit card company actual money in both lost sales and in dealing with the fraudulent transactions.

Now if I was allowed to use my rooted Android phone during those years? It would have been locked down tighter than the vast majority of Windows boxes.

People forget that one of the value-adds of credit cards in the first place is that suddenly you didn't have to walk around with a big wad of cash. Credit cards gave you that extra level of security. Even if someone stole it, it's useless to them as soon as you make a phone call to the CC company. We can verify a transaction with a yubikey-like secret store on your device that never shares the private key with the operating system and which generates a virtual credit card on the fly. That's literally how Apple Pay and Google Pay already work. So whether a device is rooted or whatever literally doesn't matter.

Does skimming still happen a lot? At least in Europe we have switched from magnetic strip to chip-based cards, which are protected against replay attacks.

We have chips but magnetic strips are still on most credit cards and payments are still accepted that way in many older payments gateways. From what I read on the topic the cost of lost business if this was disabled is greater than eating the cost of skimmer attacks. There is a several year plan to phase it out entirely. It's mostly because initially when chips came out a lot of business owners were angry that they had to buy new payment machines and good luck explaining this to a none tech person.

In the UK, many banks disable the magnetic strip by default, and you have to temporarily enable it from the bank's app/website if you want to use it.

You'd struggle to find a POS terminal that even has a reader for them in the UK. I've only ever had to enable them in the US or Japan.

whether a device is rooted kinda does matter from this pov as it undoes a lot of the security assumptions on android...

however grapheneos isn't rooted anyway

We're talking about just in time tokens that disappear after use. There's nothing you can do to defeat that on a rooted device. That's the whole point of the entire tech. That's why yubikeys are even a thing.

I'm in Europe, but I had accepted that I had to do without. I hadn't heard of curve, going to check that out.

the Play store reviews for Curve are attrocious, especially the most recent ones. Looks like Curve is absolutely unusable, for many reasons

It's even available in my country! Never heard of it, would have assumed it's not being sold here. Let's see what that costs when I click the "shop now" button that's front and center

> Attention required!

> Sorry, you have been blocked

> The action you just performed triggered the security solution. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data.

Thanks cloudflare *handshake* garmin. I suppose I'll stay with chip and pin for now

Use a solvent to dissolve the plastic from the card then epoxy the extracted antenna and chip innards to the back of your phone case. Problem solved. (I'm only 50% joking, you can actually do this but maybe epoxy isn't the best option.)

There are a few other banks running their own NFC payment systems, like Swedbank in my country.

I have these cards I keep in my (RFID-blocking) wallet, one for each credit account. Then I just pull them out and tap to pay. It's super convenient - no app required!

People cannot steal your card info via proximity to your wallet over NFC if the wallet’s physical barrier blocks the RF signal.

People can't steal your card info via proximity to your wallet over NFC even without an RF blocking wallet. This is tinfoil hat security cargo culting, like putting tape over your webcam while leaving the laptop's microphone connected (audio from your room is much more useful than 2834823428 frames of your greasy face).

No but they can steal up to the pin-free amount of money your card allows. They can just hold a sumup to your pocket. Here in Europe most people use debit cards with non-reversible transactions and that limit is often 70-100€ which is quite a lot of money where I live. And they can steal a lot more if they follow you and shouldersurf your pincode.

I definitely use one of those wallets. They're quite convenient too.

The person mentioned it like it's a feature for them, but I haven't heard of it being anything other than a marketing gimmick, so I was curious for their perspective.

Cash for most things, and just use a card like normal otherwise.

I don't really see the appeal of contactless payment, pulling a card out really doesn't take much time.

Google Pay (Google Wallet) actually also has virtual number so my real card number won't leak in many cases.

Just having to take your phone with you is quite comfortable. Your phone is probably the pocket-sized item you are unlikeliest to lose.

True, but I also need my license to ride my motorcycle or drive a car, plus cash needs to go somewhere.

The perks of living in a city with good public transport

+ my country already has a mobile driver's license app

And most places take card (or nfc via google/apple pay)

I can say the same. Been using LineageOS and GrapheneOS for most of my life. Some things are not super convenient (I generally dont install non-free-software applications and don't have Google Play services enabled), but the rest of the experience is great. No crashes, no bugs, no unexpected behavior. Currently I'm using the Pixel 9 Pro XL.

I can also recommend Gadgetbridge for BLE smartwatch integration.

It's interesting how you are able to conclude that.

e/OS is clearly a step up from default Android

Insinuating that real privacy /security is for pedophiles and criminals is primarily what supports my conclusion.

It doesn't matter what your marketing says, what's important is what your devices do, and /e/ is much less secure or private than iOS.

Attacking GrapheneOS which makes real progress at privsec.

Thinking that badness enumeration is effective for improving privacy while ignoring real solutions like improving the app sandbox and adding more permissions.

Adding Google services and giving them extra privileges. GrapheneOS ships with zero Google services by default.

https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142#m

I have two questions, if anyone has any advice.

1) What's a reasonable Pixel phone to buy to try out GrapheneOS? Is a 128GB Pixel 7 "good enough" or will I get a significantly better experience with a newer phone and/or more storage?

2) Is there a Graphene alternative that would let me de-google an Samsung A12? Back in the day I had some Galaxy S3 and S4 phones that I installed Lineage on, I have no idea if that's compatible to Graphene and/or still a going thing?

1) any currently-supported device is good, but i'd say go for minimum pixel 8a if you can

it ships with Memory Tagging Extensions (armv9 security feature) and two more years of support than previous generations; pixel 7 might be eol in oct 2027 https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-lifetime

official recommendation page: https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices

2) there is no real graphene alternative for other devices. I would say DivestOS at least made sane compromises to support less secure devices, but it's unfortunately defunct now. Yes lineage is still around and still the go-to clean 'ROM' but far from security focused. just avoid stuff like /e/ os

Because why would you trust an operating system of which the companies CEO says that security hardening is only for criminals and spies?

Besides doing many other shady things, like putting a proxy between their App Louge and F-Droid (cleanapk.org), while simultaneously not wanting to reveal who owns/controls that proxy? Remember that Android relies on trust on first use. Or running Google proprietary DroidGuard blobs in a privileged process for Play Integrity/SafetyNet? Or giving certain Google Apps elevated privileges when you install them?

I could go on for a while.

(I made the mistake of installing /e/OS on a phone once and then started poking around and it really has many security issues, questionable choices, etc.)

I would suggest Pixel 8 series or later, since they get 7 years (instead of 5) of updates, which is also decisive for Graphene support duration.

1) I'm typing this in a pixel 7 pro running grapheneos. I'd say these are plenty good enough. Device support is pretty solid compared to cyanogenmod of previous times. App installation is a bit slow using sandboxed play store. Not sure why that is.

For security reasons, GrapheneOS uses ahead-of-time compilation for apps. The stock OS compiles the heavily used parts of the code dynamically in-memory and then does partial ahead-of-time compilation later in the background. The install-time compilation will become more asynchronous in the future so the app can be used right away.

We Have been successfully using graphene on a pixel 4 plus, 5 plus and a 6pro. They all work. Very well. They were cheap to buy. Super easy to install graphene (remember they have a very easy stepu by step process, takes about 10 minutes) It's a good way to test and see if you like it. Truly amazing operating system. Simple and beautiful control of your apps and their behaviors.

Pixel 7 is definitely good enough if you don't have special needs. I'm writing this from a 6a right now.

Any phone that is good enough with stock Android for your case is good enough with Graphene. If you really just want to try it out, it's the cheapest old Pixel *a you can find.

Checking which phones are supported by Lineage and Graphene can be done by everyone in a matter of minutes.

If you want to try it out, you can easily buy an 8a for like 250 euros used. 128GB is certainly good enough, unless you plan on migrating your mp3 library to it or you take a lot of videos. My only qualms is the lack of SD card, for the aforementioned mp3s.

And trust me you'll like it ;)

299CHF for pixel 9a NEW in my local electronics webstore - the only difference between this and 10a is increased level of flatness of newer one..z

The post doesn't say - what's new? Anything to look forward to besides the security patches for A17 being available for longer than they will be for A16?

Asking as an A11 user who will probably soon need to switch to a new device. I haven't noticed anything on other people's phones that isn't available on mine, including on my work phone that runs an up-to-date GrapheneOS (but I don't need to do much more than calling and 2FA, so I might just not be seeing it). Anything you guys are excited for, or any protips of things to check out that were released recently?

Does GrapheneOS run on tablets? I don't see a whole chat app (shown in the example) fitting on my phone screen alongside something like a web browser, and the screenshot is from a square screen

It's complicated. The Tensor G2 Pixel tablet was a solid device, and you can still buy it new from Google (with no choice on color or size in my country), but production has been discontinued and the two direct generational successors were canceled, in sequence. First it was skipping a generation, then it was canceling it entirely. The rumored "Pro" version also appears to have been axed.

I've used mine daily since it came out, and it's a great experience. I'd recommend picking it up for anyone who wants GOS on a larger screen. An iPad it isn't, but my iPad Pros have sat almost totally dormant since I got it years ago.

It lacks horsepower compared to the latest Pixel Pros, but that hasn't been a practical concern in anything I've done with it so far.

> production has been discontinued and the two direct generational successors were canceled, in sequence. First it was skipping a generation, then it was canceling it entirely. The rumored "Pro" version also appears to have been axed.

Pity. Genuine pity. Guess I'll continue using my 5 year-old out-of-support device until someone decides to make a decent GrapheneOS-compatible tablet with stylus pen support. If it breaks, I'll just go back to notebooks.

It runs on tablets and folding devices. There hasn't been a recent tablet meeting the requires but the Pixel 9 Pro Fold and Pixel 10 Pro Fold are supported. Both of those are phones folding out into a close to square tablet. There will be more standalone tablets supported again.

There's an (un)folding Pixel that runs GOS. Not exactly a tablet, but possibly sufficient depending on your needs. Not cheap, however.

Been toying with the idea for a long time, but I'm concerned about US financial institution apps and multiple countries specific apps (local transport, finance, medical and governmental), whose apks do no exist, as well as (crucial for me, as a heavy international traveler) google voice. For a lot such I now need to use a combo of Google playstore, for US account tied apps, and Aurora for non US apps.

> We've already tested the Android 17 port of GrapheneOS on the Pixel 6a, 7, 7a, 8, 10a, 10 and 10 Pro Fold.

No love for 9 or 9a? I guess it's still coming eventually.

- A 9a owner running GrapheneOS

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116761945417419946

>Those are just the devices we initially tested it on which mainly has to do with which devices were available to the people working on the port.

>To clarify the 2nd paragraph, we've ported GrapheneOS to Android 17 for all of the supported devices. That's a list of the devices we already built and tested it. Our initial public release will be available for all the supported devices and we'll have tested it on each by then.

I have always wondered what this OS looks like. They have an incredibly detailed website with zero screenshots.

It's valid question for people unfamiliar with the project, but it is the AOSP in terms of looks, GrapheneOS does not customize the UI in any way beyond what their own features require as additions. Note that Pixel OS is not AOSP. The default home app of course also influences the experience quite the bit unless you replace it, which is what I'd personally recommend everyone to do as it's so incredibly barebones. Lawnchair is already a big step up as an open source alternative.

I've been thinking it might be worthwhile to showcase that you can make GrapheneOS look beautiful or the same as stock Pixel UI. When I was considering switching from iPhone I had this misconception that it would look ugly or wouldn't look the same as Pixel UI, which is not the case at all. When I asked about it I wasn't given this clearcut answer that you can make GrapheneOS UI look the same or better than Pixel UI.

Wow that looks nice. I don't think you can get that.

You can change any apps to different apps meaning the keyboard, homescreen/launcher, messaging app. The launcher is a primary UI thing which is different from iOS and is totally customizable by just installing a new app.

So you can change the look of anything that depends on an app, but stuff like the control center, lock screen, volume sliders, connectivity icons, notifications afaict can't be changed.

https://niagaralauncher.com is a cool looking launcher that I used to use.

It's a little confusing but I'll say there's nothing ugly like the stock GOS apps that can't be changed and tha unchangeably UI elements match the Pixel UI.

Here's a comparison which will show both the unchangable stuff like control center, but also the Pixel launcher, which you can swap out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwNicPJk4lY

I switched from iPhone and once I installed good looking apps I really prefer the look to iOS because it's a lot faster and smoother.

Thanks! I've been contemplating trying out Graphene, but I really enjoy the user experience of iOS. But I feel like I should at least get acquainted with Graphene as the inevitable enshittification of iOS will occur.

Makes me sad, because I can't make the jump until I know my banking and related essential apps will work.

See https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa... for banking apps. Anything that's not a banking or government app is extremely likely to work. Very few other apps ban using a non-Google-certified OS and that's the only significant reason for incompatibilities. GrapheneOS has a per-app exploit protection compatibility mode to work around memory corruption bugs caught by the features. It's in the process of overhauling the secure spawning feature to avoid tripping rare anti-tampering measures in certain banking apps. Play Integrity is increasingly the only compatibility issue. Some apps using Play Integrity have explicitly permitted GrapheneOS though.

In terms of apps, I fully believe it will only get worse from here: Google’s trajectory has been pretty hostile, and third‑party developers tend to follow it.

That’s why I have two phones. One runs GrapheneOS and is my daily driver; the other (considerably less private and secure) stays at home connected to my server so I can always scrcpy into it.

I had the same idea in mind, would you mind sharing how you do it? I also use 2 phones, GrapheneOS as my daily, another phone at home just with banking stuff and some other crappy apps.

Few questions if you dont mind answering: - do you have to keep the phone screen switched on? - Do you access via VNC? - Can you access it from another phone? is it usable?

Thanks!

I refuse to ever use a banking app on my phone, so I don't even know if my bank's app would work. But every other app I've tried to use works just fine on GraphineOS.

If you've confirmed your banking app won't work on GOS, have you considered accessing your bank's website through your phone's browser instead?

What does it mean for an OS to be ported to another OS? Do they mean "ported to devices that support Android"?

It means they rebased all their changes on top of the new version. This is usually time-consuming because AOSP is not developed in the open, so you can't do this incrementally as things change -- you just get a massive drop sometime after release.

Android makes yearly releases. It is developed in cathedral-style. Google releases the source as a single big update. GrapheneOS is a fork. They need to port their customizations and extra software on top of the new release.

Every six months, not yearly. Google releases the major version and QPR2 as part of AOSP. QPR1 and QPR3 are Pixel-only.

Since they switched to QPRs and Pixel drops, major releases have become less important because feature roll out throughout the year. It's just that nobody outside GrapheneOS and Samsung (to my knowledge) rolls out QPR2, so for non-Pixel/Samsung, the major releases are... major.

I think another major source of work for GrapheneOS is when Google releases QPR1 and QPR3, because GrapheneOS had to rebase the driver/firmware changes on top of QPR0/QPR2.

It's a fork of the Android Open Source Project (AOSP) with major privacy/security improvements and alternatives to Google apps/services. The massive set of changes needs to be ported to new major versions of AOSP.

The apps also need to be updated to the Android 17 target API level but that can happen over several months following the OS itself being ported to it. The app aspect is something all Android developers need to deal with due to new target API levels bringing backwards incompatible improvements.

From two months ago:

In the USA, I think most people can easily afford a Pixel 9a at $56/year of device support starting from today. Calculator checks yearly cost based on device support: (https://ibb.co/xq82YQCw)

Sources for device lifetime from calculator: (https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-lifetime)

I used a New+Unlocked+Pixel+X on eBay to find a rough price of the phone.

Most people get scammed by their carrier and pay $25-45 per month just for their wireless subscription, and many more get caught up in the device bundles which gets you the "latest and greatest", at a huge price. So people are paying, per month, what you can pay, per year for a Pixel.

Only Google Pixel’s and Fairphone’s currently provide bare minimum for 3rd-party OS support: working verified boot with user-provided signing keys. None of the other phones doing that yet

Fairphone cant be supported because it does not keep up with Android updates and in particular Linux kernel updates. Currently supported Fairphone’s have EOL (outdated, not supported) Linux kernel version. They are bad in terms of other aspects like lack of MTE, lack of USB port(s) control from software level on hardware level (Pixel 6 and newer have that), etc. You cant have privacy without security

But in 2027 this may change due to Motorola and GrapheneOS partnership

There are a lot of devices with the ability to install another OS and lock the device with verified boot, but none with the required updates and security features other than Pixels. Fairphones are near the bottom for security among the available options.

It's not one of the main issues with their devices but Fairphone has had a lot of issues with verified boot including using publicly available sample private keys for signing firmware and OS images across multiple device generations. It's not a strength of their devices.

What's the biggest draw of GrapheneOS apart from de-googling? Does it have a better battery life? And compliance with NFC payments?

For me it's the added security features: per-app network permissions, scoped storage/contacts permissions, and a bunch of system hardening measures.

The ability to sandbox Google Play Services (if you need it, but realistically, you probably do) and to simply not assign it more permissions than it absolutely needs is awesome. I run it with very restricted permissions, where it by default requests every single permission it can. In stock Android, it has all those, and you can't limit it. Just that is worth it for me.

If you actually degoogle, supposedly battery life is better but if you start adding back in sandboxed play services, you lose some of the gains.

Greatly improved privacy and security and end-user control of your phone and its data. In those areas, possibly the best option, though iPhones might be better in security (not necessarily the other two areas) - Apple has a slightly bigger budget and a few more engineers, and directly controls the hardware.

GrapheneOS exists to greatly improve the privacy and security of an existing open source OS project. Android Open Source Project has good privacy and security as a starting point.

Pixels provide strong hardware and firmware security. Pixels have made multiple significant hardware and firmware level improvements based on recommendations by GrapheneOS. GrapheneOS now has a hardware partnership with Motorola Mobility which includes working with Qualcomm. It isn't only a software project.

Regularly leaked data on the capabilities of Cellebrite show they have the least success with GrapheneOS by far despite specifically hiring for it based on their job postings.

It will depend on your banks/services. If those apps strictly implement Play Integrity API, you won't be able to use them on Graphene OS

Couldn't be happier using this on an old Nord Oneplus N10. Had to look around since it was out of date but thankfully they have archived builds.

With Google making side loading extremely difficult soon, there's never been a better time to switch to a more secure OS for your phone.

There are some apps I can't do without like ReThink DNS, NewPipe and other open source apps which I use regularly. All would get blocked under Googles new regime.

I've been running GrapheneOS for over an year now. Bought a Pixel 6a last year as a cheap way to test waters, but pretty soon I upgraded to discounted Pixel 9. It took a while to set the basics (coming from iPhone), and I'm still have a couple of stuff missing, but at this point don't intend to use anything else (for as long as possible).

The biggest hurdles for me were - should I use separate profiles and how to get apps. Initially, I started with a separate profile for google stuff (like play store/services and apps downloaded from there, like Viber), but eventually I moved everything to the owner profile (and took a bit of a privacy and battery hit in the matter of convenience). Still, being able to control many app permissions, gives me a good state of mind that apps are not doing more then I expect.

Just looked at what android 17 brings to the table and I'm mildly excited - especially improving performance and adding more permissions (like ACCESS_LOCAL_NETWORK)

I started rebuilding my phone from factory tonight, and I opted for the private profile partition inside of the main profile for my play store apps. It's accomplishing everything I wanted a fully separate profile to do without the hard switch.

I made the same mistake after being burned by the PinePhone, buying a heavily discounted Pixel 6 to test various Android forks, which eventually included GrapheneOS. I quickly knew I'd found home upgraded to a 9 Pro XL.

From Google's Android 17 release:

> ... Android 17 expands the capabilities of AppFunctions, a platform API with a corresponding Jetpack library. It allows you to contribute your app's unique capabilities as orchestratable "tools" for Android MCP, the on-device equivalent of the Model Context Protocol. AI agents and assistants (like Google Gemini) can discover and execute AppFunctions to perform workflows on behalf of the user with direct access to the app's local state.

Is that implemented in GOS? How is that done securely - giving LLMs power to control some apps?

I own a z fold 6.

If I try Graphene what do I lose? Similar to how if you use something like icefox or icewolf one of those very secure browser, lots of normie websites like banking just straight up don't work. What would I lose by moving away from samsung's default to this more private OS?

It isn't only developed for Pixels. Pixels are currently the only devices permitting an alternate OS with the required updates and security features. GrapheneOS has a partnership with Motorola Mobility and there will be official GrapheneOS support for a subset of next generation Motorola devices.

GrapheneOS would be so much more interesting if there was an official supported way for rooting it. That's the only reason I haven't switched to it on my several devices (all rooted)

That completely goes against what they're working towards. I understand why you would want to root your own phone, but GOS is targeting highest security standards and root ain't one of them (for good reason).

But in that case why you would need to use GrapheneOS at all? Without security you cant have privacy and OS with security as priority cant just add hole in the system because it would allow to bypass all security features added on top of AOSP and AOSP features too. Most features people use root for can be achieved without root by modifying Android Framework itself with SystemUI/Settings app

If you wish so you can gain root privileges on your own in your own build or with modifying GrapheneOS existing builds. It wont be compatible with GrapheneOS provided updates because of signature mismatch

They value privacy and security. Allowing userspace apps to completely circumvent Android's permission system massively weakens both.

If you value freedom to do what you want on your devices, then you may want to consider Librem 5 instead. It runs a desktop Debian derivative with full root access.

permanent reminder that graphene and all other "alternatives to android" depend on extracted binary blobs. tons of them. which is the reason new (kernel) versions are such a chore/achievement.

The kernel drivers are fully open source and moving to new kernel branches is a standard part of the update process. Pixels are currently moving from 6.1 and 6.6 to 6.12 with Android 17 QPR2. This is part of the hardware requirements for GrapheneOS listed here:

https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

Are you saying that GraphebneOS running on Google Pixels has no proprietary blobs apart from the firmware?

I had been using LineageOS + microG for many years on my Pixel 3. I upgraded to a Pixel 8 and tried out GrapheneOS and the install experience was good, but I found some odd performance quirks - apps would be slow to install and run, downloads were slow, etc. Has anyone had similar issues?

Many apps that work on microG don't work in GrapheneOS without installing Google services anyway. I'm by no means across the full privacy implications, but my feeling is microG balances privacy and usability better for me.

I've since switched back to LineageOS+microG and am happy with it. Just my experience.

>but I found some odd performance quirks - apps would be slow to install and run, downloads were slow, etc. Has anyone had similar issues?

not sure about downloads specifically, but app installs are slow because grapheneos forces AOT compilation (JIT is disabled), presumably for security reasons.

A lot of developers are lured into building in a dependency on Google services, so yes you'll need microG or, as GrapheneOS prefers, the original Google code running on your device for those apps to function. Or patch the app, like Langis does for Signal (not necessary for it to function without Google in this case, but it removes its calling out to Google's apps and services for those who don't want that). If you're happy with that setup and don't need protect-from-the-government levels of security (street thugs aren't going to ransomware your device by abusing an unlocked bootloader or send exploit chains that work on anything but the hardened allocator), LineageOS is probably the better choice for you. GrapheneOS has some nice things like easily denying the network permission for an app (even if they could theoretically work around it with intents) and having a custom A-GNSS server, but you can do the same on LineageOS by using root and something like AFWall+ for the network and configuring Graphene's A-GNSS (SUPL) proxy in the system settings (don't forget to donate if you use it and are able)

>but you can do the same on LineageOS by using root and something like AFWall+ for the network

lineageos has built-in firewall for years now. no need for afwall.

Since grapheneOS only supports latest Google pixel phones, I tried installing LineageOS on my Mi11. Sadly, if you own a Xiaomi, you can’t just install another os. You need to unlock the bootloader and Xiomi limits you with a global quota of daily unlocked phones, you basically need to enter at midnight and hope. This is a complete nonsense, we have zero governance on our devices after paying them so much.

Here's an example of what they're responding to with inaccurate personal attacks:

https://grapheneos.social/@GrapheneOS/116353973732143171

GrapheneOS posts factual information debunking inaccurate claims from groups attacking it. Some of those groups react to their misleading claims being addressed with personal attacks. Threads about GrapheneOS on Hacker News usually have multiple posts with personal attacks towards our team from people influenced by those groups.

> GrapheneOS is security before anything else.

GrapheneOS is a privacy project highly focused on usability and compatibility. Privacy depends on security so it has to put a lot of work into security too and it has always been a major focus, but it's a misconception that it's all about security.

> This means they strongly advice against using other software many in their core audience are predisposed to like: Firefox, Signal, plugins for browsers, F-Droid, ect.

GrapheneOS doesn't recommend against Signal but rather it's the main recommendation for end-to-end encrypted chat from the project including via the Molly fork of Signal.

> The explanations are usually quite... blunt, and they're not exactly open for discussion (which makes sense, from a pure security perspective, those apps are indefensible).

This isn't true. GrapheneOS provides nuanced information with detailed explanations for these topics.

To get a sense of the project and its goals I recommend reading this post[1].

Buying a used Pixel is economical, environmental, and likely doesn't support Google. Pixels are the only secure and open android devices that could work for the project and meet the extensive requirements[2]. This is because GrapheneOS takes real steps to protect user privacy and security, not features that degrade security and don't increase privacy. You are going to be doing much more against Google by using GrapheneOS because it comes with 0 google services by default and takes advanced steps to protect you from all apps and services you install.

If you are still not willing or able to purchase a Pixel, GrapheneOS has a partnership with Motorola to help them create compatible devices which will be available soon[3].

[1] Privacy and security on computing devices need to become far stronger to protect people from pervasive violations of their rights. https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/2044440381803069778#m

[2] https://grapheneos.org/faq#future-devices

[3] https://xcancel.com/GrapheneOS/status/2028448871374803007#m

> Buying a used Pixel is economical, environmental, and likely doesn't support Google

Interesting. What do you think are reasons for google to run Pixel then?

Not being sarcastic here, but what links you shared (thank you) say imply there are almost no benefits for Google to run Pixels and as we all know, Google is not a company doing charities.

> What do you think are reasons for google to run Pixel then?

Get millions of users using their services. The average person who buys a Pixel will likely go all in with the Google ecosystem giving Google every word they type, every message to a loved one, every search. It's a data gold mine.

I doubt they sell Pixels at a loss, but even if they did they could make up for it like how Amazon does with kindles.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/zakdoffman/2026/04/28/price-of-...

I think they also use pixels for testing android and such which is why they keep it secure and open.

Pixels used to be a reference devices for AOSP. Maybe they're proving that ultimately they have the skill and capabilities to provide good solutions?

The Pixel was never sold in my country so it's much more difficult that you think. Even if it was I wouldn't buy it because I don't buy Google products.

> If you are still not willing to purchase a Pixel for whatever reason, GrapheneOS has a partnership with Motorola to help them create compatible devices which will be available soon[2].

Ok? Wake me up when that happens.

> The Pixel was never sold in my country

Okay, see, that's an important thing to add to your original post. Saves everyone a lot of time.

If they don't sell them in your country, it's not "no thank you" as you said, it's "this doesn't apply to me".

I don't see how it's relevant. I couldn't possibly have made it any more clear I would not buy a Google device, new or used, because I don't like Google.

Because AOSP is open source and can be built without Google Play running at the background unlike the other alternative: giving up privacy to yet another big tech Apple.

Graphene adds many privacy features on top of regular AOSP. But it only works on phones that has good security features that are not woefully outdated or completely closed-off. Google has complete control over Pixel supply chain and they can make their phones with all bells and whistles for their ends and they behave a bit benevolently and expose the interfaces to the user too.

Most Android phones use Qualcomm which doesn't give a flying fuck about giving control or privacy to the users.

Opensource or not if someone says they hate so much google they do not want to touch a google device with a 10ft pole even if they didn't gave money or personal data to google to access it, I don't see how that person can accept running code from them.

That's a value judgement, and it's a fair one. It does throw an additional constraint in the works though.

FWIW, I've been looking at the mobile / portable computing space fairly intensively for a month or so. I share your quite dim view of Google.

GrapheneOS does seem to be one of the most attractive Android alternatives.

There are also Lineage (based on CyanogenMod), AOSP, KaiOS (based on AOSP, via Firefox OS), LightOS (by Lightphone, AOSP), AphyOS (used by Punkt. mp03, also based on AOSP). These tend to be minimal, used on feature phones / dumbphones / minimalist phones. And there are /e/OS and iodéOS.

Among Linux-based non-Android options are Sailfish OS (Jolla), Ubuntu Touch (Ubuntu), PineOS (Pinephone), and PureOS (Purism), Tizen, Mobian (based on Debian), postMarketOS (based on Alpine Linux). These tend to be maximalist, offering a fuller experience than Android, with support for native Linux applications and configurations.

There are some non-Linux OSes, of which I'm aware of System 30+ (a/k/a S30+, Nokia), OpenHarmony (by Huawei), and ... something described as "realtime OS" or "RTOS" which actually had a name, for a Japanese flip phone, but which has slipped my mind (probably something reviewed by Jose Briones on his YouTube channel).

And of course there's iOS.

Briones by the way is an absolutely excellent resource: <https://josebriones.org/>. He's also one of the mods of /r/dumbphones at Reddit.

There are trade-offs, and what you choose depends on what you value, in the marketplace, in capabilities, in your own peace of mind.

If you want a full-featured device with wide acceptance, few limitations, and want nothing to do with Google, look at iOS devices.

If you want (nearly) full Android capabilities, but without Google's prying eyes and ears, GrapheneOS or LineageOS are probably your best bets. Whilst Graphene currently only works on Google Pixel devices, there's been a partnership announced with Motorola, there may be others in future (my speculation, with no other basis). And ironic as it seems, Graphene + Pixel actually does get you further from Google in many ways, though I still understand your position.

If you want full freedom / maximal privacy, and are prepared to make compromises on capabilities and battery life, look at one of the Linux-based, non-Android options. I've heard of quite a few bugs with these.

If you're looking for specific hardware capabilities (e-ink, folding / candybar, keyboard (T-9, qwerty, ...), small, large, tablet, headphone jack, etc., etc., or specific software capabilities, you're going to further refine your search. (Briones has a Dumbphone Finder at his website which does this pretty well.)

If you want modularity or repairability, there are devices such as Fairphone or Keyphone with (some) replaceable components.

If you want minimalism, look at an AOSP-based device, or perhaps S30+. These will give you feature phones capable of calls, texts, and a few apps, but not much else. For more complete computing you'll need either a desktop or a laptop.

There are more extreme options. I'm considering, for example, whether or not a roving SIP WiFi-only phone might be an option, and if so, what would be necessary to make that work. It would rely on a WiFi network provider (public or non-public network, or a cellular modem), and wouldn't function everywhere but should function in many locations sufficiently to be useful.

Most non-smartphone options I've looked at, and in particular the usual "dumbphone" suspects (Light Phone, Punkt.) tend to run an AOSP-based OS, with Nokia being the principle exception.

Briones FWIW uses the Light Phone III as his daily driver. That's somewhat spendy, and quite minimal, but he has his reasons, discussed at length at his blog and YT channel.

I'm leaning fairly strongly toward an option now, though my main hesitation is that KaiOS devices have very limited phone/SMS spam and/or traffic management. I'd prefer known-contacts-only could reach the device, that doesn't seem to be possible (KaiOS has only specific-caller blocking, and apparently a limited API for enabling more robust phone blocking). On the flipside, the device can be powered off, and/or battery removed.... I'm also looking at some VOIP/SIP options.

This probably falls under "capabilities", but another consideration worth strong consideration is mobile network support. With the past phase-outs of 2G/GSM, ongoing 3G phase out, converstion to LTE and VoLTE, and expansion of 5G networks, as well as differing network and frequency standards around the world, finding a device which will work with your preferred mobile provider(s) is a challenge.

This is one of my strikes against the Punkt mp02: it doesn't work with most of my carrier options. I was hoping that either that device's capabilities would be extended, or its replacement would follow a similar ethic and expand bandwidth / protocols, but neither occurred. Further reading on Punkt's offerings has further cooled my interest (bugs, fragile HW, spendy).

RCS and group chat support seems to be another sticker, though with a small-form-factor laptop or tablet you should be able to work around that.

The other sticker for me (mentioned in my original post) is voice/SMS/messaging filtering options. The increase in spam / unsolicited contacts across the comms spectrum is immensely frustrating, and few devices / OSs / apps really address the situation adequately and in a privacy-respecting manner. That's still giving me a lot of hesitency on what really ought not to be this complex a decision, though for now I'm thinking it's a good thing to spend the time.

If you want full freedom / maximal privacy, and are prepared to make compromises on capabilities and battery life, look at one of the Linux-based, non-Android options. I've heard of quite a few bugs with these.

Most of them also have really bad security, for various reasons, including:

- Since virtually no hardware vendor (outside Jolla) supports non-Android phones, they typically use phones that were made by their ODMs as Android phones and rely on kernel/firmware/device trees made available for those Android builds. Sadly, nobody outside Google (PixelOS) and Samsung really cares about giving their kernels and firmware timely updates. So usually the kernel and firmware are full of known holes (Qualcomm and others do monthly bulletins).

- For many reasons, Linux systems have never really focused on proper security isolation and sandboxing. So most of these phones have really poor isolation and you are only one browser/image parsing/... vulnerability away from full phone compromise.

- Unlocked bootloaders or otherwise compromised boot chain. So, it's easy for persistent malware to compromise a phone and there is no way to attest that the system runs unmodified binaries (as you can e.g. can with GrapheneOS' auditor or Android phones with fully verified boot and Strongbox).

Let's say, if I was a bank, I can understand why I would want to block such devices.

> Let's say, if I was a bank, I can understand why I would want to block such devices.

So as a bank, you would be forcing your customers into the duopoly of the American megacorps. Thankfully, there are banks that do not do this.

Nice strawmanning!

Obviously I want banks to support alternatives, but I can understand if they only want to support secure OSes. Some banks support GrapheneOS remote attestation besides Google Play Integrity at the strong level.

By your reasoning, 99.9% of people use awfully insecure OSes on desktop and servers. And yet, the world hasn't collapsed. My bank account is not hacked regularly, too.

It makes sense that an open source project would focus on one series of phones since their time and resources are limited.

That said, Google's hardware is behind their competitors and they've had a lot of problems in the past few years. The Pixel 8 Pro has hardware WiFi problems, the 9 and 10 are both minor updates with prices that are far too high, the 10 is eSIM only, etc.

The Pixel 9 had a vastly improved modem and the 10 switched to TSMC for their Tensor SoC, resulting in better performance and better battery life/less heat.

It's true that the SoCs are not that great for an expensive flagship phone, but the trick is buying a Pixel halfway the cycle, when the prices go to mid-range. For instance, currently in my country:

- Pixel 10 is 350 Euro off (currently 549 Euro).

- Pixel 10 Pro is 360 Euro off (currently 739 Euro).

- Pixel 10 Pro XL is 360 Euro off (currently 939 Euro).

- The Pixel A series are less interesting currently, because it's still early in the cycle, but the 9a is 200 Euro off (349) and the 10a is 120 Euro off (428). It's a shame that they switched to last-gen SoCs and modems now on the A-series now.

I know that the Pixel 100 is coming soon-ish, but the 10 series have floated around those price points since 5-6 months after the release.

the 10 is eSIM only

Looking at my P10P with physical SIM. I guess you are in the US?

> The Pixel 8 Pro has hardware WiFi problems, the 9 and 10 are both minor updates

The prime difference between P8 pro and P9 pro is that the newer one is nearly a usable size (just about fits in a pocket now). The battery also got substantially better in two ways: on mobile data (when you're on someone's WiFi, odds are you're also near a charger) you get 33% longer use time on all variants of the P9 and 55% on the P10 and P10p (9 to 12 and 14 hours, respectively), and hours of use per 30 minutes of charging went up from 4.6 for the P8 to 6.3 for the P9(p) and 6.2 or 7 for the P10 and P10p, respectively

The rest is indeed relatively minor but it's not an unwelcome upgrade. Prices didn't change much when buying second-hand 1.5 years after release, when the newest devices are out and nobody cares about the generation-before-last despite >5 years of updates remaining (plus however long you think it's fine without updates)

Only silver lining to this is they run a lot of discounts and promotions on them, and it's possible to buy them at a significant discount. Got my first Pixel 10 on a very cheap contract with trade-in promos on top, and got a second Pixel 10 at a 70% discount from the RRP.

Watch out in the US though, apparently some carriers disable OEM Unlocking (so you cannot unlock your bootloader).

It's not possible to buy them at all where I live, even if I wanted to funnel money to Google - which I do not. I have gone to great lengths to de-Google my life.

Absolutely, and it is irrational to refuse to buy hardware from Google (which, with Graphene, is under your control) when the alternative is to either run a Google OS on a third party phone (and give up control of the software), or Apple (equally bad), or some impractical and less secure alternative like a Linux phone incompatible with Android apps.

Agreed. I dislike most of Google's products, but their Pixels have secure hardware and are very open (compared to other modern smartphones). In short - a good product for people wanting to run free software on modern-ish smartphones. If a product is good, why not buy it?

If you buy used, you save a bundle and google gets no money from you.

I still don't want a pixel, so I went with a used ebay phone and installed lineageos.

They have no choice at the moment, this is the ONLY hardware secure enough to even make effort in hardening the OS.

Everything else is meh, bad, or atrocious.

Next year we'll have Motorola flagship(s) to choose from. Can't wait.

I have tried ubuntu on mobile only once and never come back, because it had very bad and poor experience compared to native experience of that mobile. On which models this system works the best?

GrapheneOS is highly usable and compatible with nearly all Android apps. It has a similar experience to a mainstream Android OS if you choose to set it up that way such as using sandboxed Google Play in the main profile (which does not ruin what it provides at all, it's a perfectly valid setup). The purpose of GrapheneOS is to provide far better privacy and security than the Android Open Source Project (AOSP). AOSP is a lot more private and secure than a traditional desktop OS including one ported to mobile.

See https://grapheneos.org/faq#recommended-devices for the device recommendations. There are going to be Motorola devices with GrapheneOS support within a year too.

A pity that GrapheneOS works only on Pixel and those phones are trash for me (no microsd support). I have a 1.5 tb microsd card with all media/books and it is easy to move to another phone by just swapping the microsd card so this is one of the most important features for me.