Amna Nawaz:

The battle between the president and the pope continues to play out on the world stage. And some allies of President Trump are piling on to defend the war in Iran. The pope has not backed down from his criticisms of the conflict either, but he's taking a different approach during his visit to Africa.

Pope Leo XIV:

Good morning everyone.

Amna Nawaz:

On his flight from Algeria to Cameroon today, Pope Leo avoided President Trump's war of words and told journalists that the world needs peace.

Pope Leo XIV:

Although we have different beliefs, we have different ways of worshiping, we have different ways of living, we can live together in peace.

Amna Nawaz:

His message came after a new social media post from the president this morning sharing an image of himself being cradled by Jesus. President Trump deleted a controversial post from earlier in the week of himself depicted as Jesus that prompted criticism from many Christians.

But Christian and even Catholic members of the Trump administration are standing behind the president. At a Turning Point USA event in Georgia last night, Catholic convert and Vice President J.D. Vance disagreed with Leo's theology and suggested the pope should be careful.

Vice President J.D. Vance:

When the pope says that God is never on the side of those who wield the sword, there is 1,000-year -- more-than-1,000-year tradition of just war theory, OK? Now, we can, of course, have disagreements about whether this or that conflict is just, but I think that it's important.

In the same way that it's important for the vice president of the United States to be careful when I talk about matters of public policy. I think it's very, very important for the pope to be careful when he talks about matters of theology.

Amna Nawaz:

Many Republicans have stayed quiet or urged the president to leave the church alone. But, today, House Speaker Mike Johnson backed Vance and the president.

Rep. Mike Johnson (R-LA):

Obviously, if you wade into political waters, I think you should expect some political response, and I think the pope's received some of that.

Amna Nawaz:

The battle between the Vatican and the White House began last weekend, when Pope Leo spoke out in his strongest terms yet against the war in Iran. Leo denounced the -- quote -- "delusion of omnipotence" that he argued was fueling the war in Iran and other global conflicts.

Trump unloaded with a TRUTH Social post, calling Pope Leo -- quote -- "weak on crime and terrible for foreign policy" and said, if it wasn't for his reelection, "Leo wouldn't be the first American pope."

On Monday, he doubled down.

President Donald Trump:

We believe strongly in law and order. And he seemed to have a problem with that. So there's nothing to apologize for. He's wrong.

Amna Nawaz:

And that same day, Pope Leo was defiant.

Pope Leo XIV:

I do not look at my role as being political, a politician. I don't want to get into a debate with him. I don't think that the message of the Gospel is meant to be abused in the way that some people are doing. And I will continue to speak about this.

Amna Nawaz:

We're joined now by Reverend James Martin. He's a Jesuit priest and editor at large of "America" magazine.

Father Martin, welcome back to the "News Hour." Thanks for being with us.

Rev. James Martin:

My pleasure.

Amna Nawaz:

So let me just ask what you thought when you heard Vice President Vance warn Pope Leo to be careful on matters of theology. What was your reaction?

Rev. James Martin:

That you have the vice president warning the vicar of Christ, who is an Augustinian, who is at that time visiting the birthplace of St. Augustine, and who knows more about St. Augustine than most people have forgotten, that he doesn't understand just war and that he doesn't understand theology, I just found that really hard to swallow.

Amna Nawaz:

Father Martin, this idea of just war, what should we understand about that?

Rev. James Martin:

Well, it's an ancient concept in the Catholic Church and in the Christian church more broadly that talks about the types of requirements that are needed for war to be considered just. And people can go online and find them all. For example, there has to be a proportionate response that's usually in defense.

And pretty much every theologian, including Cardinal Robert McElroy, who's a doctorate in theology and political science, Archbishop Timothy Broglio, former head of the USCCB, have concluded this is not a just war in Iran. So it's a certain number of qualifications that they needed to consider a war to be just.

Amna Nawaz:

You posted a very lengthy response online, called out what you saw as the ironies of Vice President Vance's criticism of the pope.

You also noted his conversion, and then you wrote: "We rejoice over everyone entering the church. What most of us do not rejoice over, however, is a deadly combination of inaccuracy and hubris."

What did you mean by that?

Rev. James Martin:

Well, the inaccuracy is that he doesn't seem to understand the tenets of just war, which you can look up all the Catholic leaders and cardinals and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that have talked about that in the past couple of days.

And the hubris is telling the pope, of all people, who has a doctorate in canon law from a pontifical university and who has been an Augustinian for many years, that he doesn't understand theology. It's really pretty hard to imagine calling it anything other than hubris.

Amna Nawaz:

And, as we just reported, Father Martin, I have to ask you about these pictures. The president posted that A.I. image of himself being cradled by Jesus. That followed an A.I. image of himself as Jesus that he later deleted. That followed, we should remind people, an A.I. image of himself as pope.

Do these images go too far, in your view?

Rev. James Martin:

Yes, I mean, particularly the one where he is picturing himself as Jesus. Some people have used the term blasphemy. I think it's more appropriate to call it idolatrous.

The First Commandment is, you shall have no other Gods before me. And so to picture yourself as Jesus is really trespassing into that territory. And it's not just Catholics who are upset. I think any Christian who saw that would have to scratch their heads or be offended.

Amna Nawaz:

You know, we have saw there Pope Leo say that he does not fear the president, right, indicating he will continue to speak out if he disagrees with something that he sees.

Is it fair to say that this is a pope who is more willing to publicly disagree with or to take on the president of the United States than before?

Rev. James Martin:

I think that's not a particularly good way of looking at it, because it sets it up as a battle.

He's basically preaching the Gospel. And, look, in the Gospels, Jesus says, blessed are the peacemakers, not blessed are the warmongers. And after the resurrection, he appears to the frightened disciples and says, peace be with you, not vengeance is mine.

So the pope is proclaiming the Gospel and these Christian messages of peace. And if it has a political implication, I think he feels, so be it. But he's not looking to fight with President Trump or any other political leader.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you worry at all that this pulls him into what are seen as partisan or political battles?

Rev. James Martin:

No, I'm not worried at all, because he's sticking to the Gospels.

I think what worries me the most is that, when President Trump attacks the pope, attacks the Holy Father, he gives rein to -- or free rein to a lot of anti-Catholicism and also just sort of denigrates the office and denigrates a really important moral voice, which I think people should listen to.

Amna Nawaz:

What are you hearing from members of the Catholic community at this time about all of these headlines, about the pope's leadership and these public feuds that we're seeing?

Rev. James Martin:

Well, I would say Catholics from traditional Catholics to progressive Catholics were really pretty appalled.

And people have been saying it's ironic because this is the one thing that has sort of pulled the Catholic community together in the United States. But there's a great deal of love and affection for Pope Leo. I think he has something like an 84 percent approval rating.

But people like the guy. And so to see someone disparage the pope, which is really disparaging the representative of the Catholic Church, and therefore disparaging the Catholic Church, is very hard for people to take. So, all -- pretty much all the Catholics I have talked to have been appalled.

Amna Nawaz:

Do you think there's anything to this being the first American pope that makes him more of a focus of the American president's ire when he feels he disagrees with him?

Rev. James Martin:

I think that's accurate, because I think you can no longer use the excuse, as some people did under Pope Francis and even Pope Benedict and Pope John Paul, that the pope doesn't understand the United States.

So I think that gives his critiques or what are perceived as critiques a lot more weight.

Amna Nawaz:

That is the Reverend James Martin, editor at large of "America" magazine, joining us tonight.

Father Martin, thank you. It's always good to speak with you.

Rev. James Martin:

My pleasure.