Tucker Carlson accused Shark Tank star Kevin O’Leary of “gaming a system” and relying on corporate welfare from taxpayers in a tense debate on the construction of AI data centers.

Carlson brought O’Leary on The Tucker Carlson Show this week, where he focused the episode on AI and its potential effects on the American workforce. Carlson admitted at one point he’s majorly concerned over AI and he brought on O’Leary in an attempt to alleviate his fears. O’Leary is an outspoken supporter of President Donald Trump, while Carlson has grown critical of him on issues like the Iran war and more.

O’Leary is currently building a massive $100 billion data center in Utah where the governor has said there is an “obligation” to build the center to keep up national competitiveness when it comes to AI. O’Leary has promised the center and its construction will create thousands of jobs while critics in the state have raised concerns, including environmental ones about water use and more.

Carlson grilled O’Leary on a number of points about AI, including the practicality of AI creating more jobs than it eliminates, as supporters insist.

He was especially curious about “tax breaks” projects like the AI data center receive. The project was approved through The Utah Military Installation Development Authority (MIDA) and the approval includes certain initial tax breaks.

“Let me ask though about why taxpayers should have to pay for this if it’s a private business and your tenants are some of the richest companies in the world. Why would taxpayers be required, as they now are, to subsidize this?” Carlson asked O’Leary.

O’Leary explained such tax breaks are commonplace and incentivize a business to choose a certain state to call home. He added that the tax breaks are paid off through taxes the company eventually pays out and the jobs created.

“No, no, I understand that you’re gaming a system in place you didn’t come up with, but I’m just trying to understand,” Carlson said, arguing in the back-and-forth that the tax breaks leading to more tax income doesn’t benefit the state taxpayers.

“Tucker, welcome to America, buddy. This is how it’s gone on for 200 years!” O’Leary said.

“Okay, well, I don’t know. Lots of bad things go on for a while. I’m just, but I think at some point it’s worth assessing like, why are we doing this?” Tucker said.

“You are fair to do that. You’re doing it because there’s a competition,” O’Leary said.

“I run a couple of businesses and we’re not getting any tax breaks,” Carlson shot back. “I think they’re every bit as virtuous as data centers, but I’m not availing myself of that and no one’s offered. And I wouldn’t take it anyway, because it’s not the job of taxpayers to subsidize a private business.”

Check out the exchange below:

TUCKER CARLSON: Things around the world are moving so fast right now, it’s impossible to keep up with all of the changes. So let me ask, because I mean this is just a huge new thing and I think it’s understandable that people would be anxious about it. I don’t think they understand it. I don’t fully understand it, that’s for sure. Let me ask though about why taxpayers should have to pay for this if it’s a private business and your tenants are some of the richest companies in the world. Why would taxpayers be required, as they now are, to subsidize this?

KEVIN O’LEARY: They don’t. They don’t necessarily have to do that. They just won’t win any contracts. It’s a competition.

CARLSON: But why are you getting tax breaks is my question.

O’LEARY: Everybody, you go back and you say, “What incentives can you give us to invest $15 billion in the first 1.5 gigs?” That’s what it takes. I have to go raise $15 billion. That’s just the first—

CARLSON: But anyone who starts a business, why should taxpayers have to pony up for that?

O’LEARY: They don’t.

CARLSON: Of course they do. If you’re getting a tax break and they’re not, they’re making up the difference. There’s a state budget.

O’LEARY: That’s no problem. That’s no problem. I can build in Texas. I can build it in Jacksonville, Mississippi.

CARLSON: But why, if it’s such a good business, would you be asking taxpayers to help pay for it without giving them equity in the company? Are you giving taxpayers shares?

O’LEARY: No, the investors get the shares, but here’s why they would do it.

CARLSON: Why would the taxpayers have to? I mean, in other words, if you want to start a business, why am I, as a taxpayer, forced to pay for your business? I don’t get it.

O’LEARY: Well, let’s forget about data centers. Let’s go any manufacturing. Let’s say you’re going to build an aluminum sheet manufacturing facility. You go to the government there and say, “Look, this is going to be a huge… expenditure. I’m going to hire 2,000 people. I’m going to build a community center. I’m going to pay a lot of tax on the profits in your state when I sell the aluminum. And I’m going to hire all these people who will also pay tax. And we will build a school because our workers need a school.” And what can you give me to incentivize me versus the state right beside you which is willing to give me an incentive package?

CARLSON: No, no, I understand that you’re gaming a system in place you didn’t come up with, but I’m just trying to understand. So the trade typically is jobs, okay? But these projects don’t actually—

O’LEARY: Well, no, no, it’s also jobs and taxes, because you’re going to be—

CARLSON: And taxes. But then you’re getting a tax break, so that doesn’t really make any sense.

O’LEARY: Only up front you’re getting— Tucker, welcome to America, buddy. This is how it’s gone on for 200 years!

CARLSON: Okay, well, I don’t know. Lots of bad things go on for a while. I’m just, but I think at some point it’s worth assessing like, why are we doing this? So on the job query—

O’LEARY: You are fair to do that. You’re doing it because there’s a competition.

CARLSON: Well, I run a couple of businesses and we’re not getting any tax breaks. I think they’re every bit as virtuous as data centers, but I’m not availing myself of that and no one’s offered. And I wouldn’t take it anyway, because it’s not the job of taxpayers to subsidize a private business.

O’LEARY: It’s a fair comment, but my job is to create a data center, create 2,000 jobs long-term and 10,000 manufacturing at the beginning, or construction. And I’m obviously looking at multiple sites, and this won’t be the last one I build. I have to—

CARLSON: May I ask, 2,000 jobs, okay, so relative to the size, the physical size of the project, which as you noted is multiple times the size of Manhattan, and the power draw at peak, this data center, your projections will consume about as much energy as New York City does, but New York City provides almost 5 million jobs and this project by your own description would provide about 2,000 jobs. I don’t see the trade here.

O’LEARY: You definitely got that calculation wrong. By building a data center that trains AI, that provides productivity to the entire nation, we create millions of jobs, high paying jobs.

CARLSON: So AI is going to create jobs?

O’LEARY: Yes.

CARLSON: I thought it was going to eliminate jobs.

O’LEARY: Just think about the new technologies we don’t even know yet that are going to be built off AI. Everybody thinks when television came, everybody would lose their job in radio. That was complete BS. And the same thing is going to happen here. Everybody’s hysteria about losing jobs, making hamburgers or flipping them, being replaced by a robot. That’s probably true. But all kinds of new technology will become available over time, including in medical science and biology and all kinds of things where the models can be used. I’m extremely optimistic. What I’m doing is creating a whole new opportunity for my children.

Watch above via The Tucker Carlson Show (beginning time stamp: 1:17:30).

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