In a new episode of The New York Times’s podcast Interesting Times, opinion columnist Ross Douthat — who noted during the discussion he’s a “conservative Catholic writer” — asked Vice President J.D. Vance about his new book, “Communion,” and “whether or not the Trump administration’s policies embody Christian values.”

Vance’s book details his journey back to faith from atheism and his embrace of Catholic ideology.

“Let’s stipulate that the Trump administration has, in some way, a kind of vision of rebuilding the working class that’s connected to Christianity,” Douthat said. “It also seems to me like the administration has distanced itself in different ways from some other obvious expressions of Christian influence on politics, some of them more sort of liberal coded, some of them more conservative coded.”

When Vance asked what he meant, Douthat answered, “The administration has been more hostile than any prior Republican administration, to say nothing of Democrats in the last 20 years, to the way we do humanitarian aid. It has kept religious conservatives, pro-life organizations, especially, at arm’s length in a way that has led to a lot of criticism.”

Douthat added, “And then, let’s be honest, the tone of the administration is not consistently a Christian tone. There is a tone of aggressive uncharity to people who aren’t on board with the administration’s policies. So I would describe those as three areas where the administration has felt functionally post-Christian to me, and I’m curious what you think.”

“So on the tone thing, it’s very hard to rebut this, because it’s fundamentally unfalsifiable,” Vance answered. “For every clip that you could show me of me or the president or some cabinet secretary saying something that in your view is un-Christian, I could show you another few clips of us doing something or saying something that is very Christian.”

Vance continued, “My point is I’m not saying we’re perfect, because we’re not. My point is that the tone argument is, in some ways, I think, people see what they want to see. And I also think that tonal arguments are ways of, frankly, policing working-class ways of communication and covering them in elite preferences.”

Douthat addressed Vance’s public opposition to Pope Leo XIV on the Iran war, asking, “How have you ended up as a Catholic convert vice president fighting with the pope about the Iran war?”

“Because I’m not fighting with the pope, Ross,” Vance answered. “What I said about the pope is, I actually like that he offers his opinions,” Vance continued. “I actually like that he’s speaking about the issues of the day and that he’s an advocate for peace. But that doesn’t mean that on provincial questions of how to balance these competing principles, you’re always going to have an elected administration that is going to agree.”

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