CNN host Abby Phillip straight-up asked a Catholic panelist if she believed that Vice President JD Vance knows “more about Catholic theology than the pope.”

Phillip began Wednesday’s edition of NewsNight by discussing the president’s ongoing feud with Pope Leo XIV, who has been outspoken in criticizing Trump’s rhetoric and policies. Trump has repeatedly attacked the pope in recent months, posting a stunning rant last week that accused Pope Leo of being “WEAK on Crime.” The vice president, who converted to Catholicism in 2019, also criticized the pontiff, telling him on Tuesday to “be careful” when discussing “matters of theology.”

National Review columnist Caroline Downey claimed that the pope’s words risked “confusing” Catholics, and that the pope needed to be more specific when he spoke out against military conflicts. Phillip noted that the Vatican had, in fact, clarified Pope Leo’s remarks before bluntly asking Downey whether the vice president was more qualified to discuss religion than the leader of the Catholic Church.

Read their exchange below:

DOWNEY: As a practicing Catholic, I know that the Vatican doesn’t operate in our political paradigm. It’s in the divine spiritual realm, so when the pope sounds like the U.N. Spokesperson saying no confrontation, no conflict, only peacekeeping, only diplomacy, that is totally normal. However, we learned this lesson with Pope Francis, who waded into politics probably more than any other pope before him, at least in terms of our modern politics, you do have to care about precision and exactitude as the successor to Peter, as someone who is informing the opinions of so many lay Catholics. So when you say, as the pope and I say, this as a practicing Catholic, that god does not hear the prayers of those who wage war, that is a bit precarious and does risk confusing practicing Catholics, because does that mean the war to fight [Adolf] Hitler and World War II, was that unjustified?

PHILLIP: Well, let me–

DOWNEY: The war against the Soviet Union, was that unjustified? I’m just saying that to say that he should be a little bit more precise, that’s not like this–

ANNA NAVARO: Ok, but it’s rather rich– it’s rather rich for–

PHILLIP: Hold on. Before you jump in, Anna, there is actual clarity from the Catholic Church on this. To your point. And the bishop, James Massa, the doctrine committee chair, so this is straight from the Catholic Church, says, “A constant tenet of that thousand year tradition is a nation can only legitimately take up the sword in self-defense once all peace efforts have failed. That is, to be a just war, it must be a war of defense against another who actively wages war,” which is what the holy father actually said. Quote, “He does not listen to the prayers of those who wage war.” So it continues, “When Pope Leo speaks as supreme pastor of the universal church, he is not merely offering opinions on theology. He is preaching the gospel and exercising his ministry as the Vicar of Christ.” So he’s basically saying in fewer words, the pope is teaching the gospel. He is speaking literally what the just war theory is. And I guess my question to you is, do you think that JD Vance knows more about Catholic theology than the pope?

DOWNEY: Well, like, I hear what you’re saying about just war theory. That was created by Saint Thomas Aquinas and Saint Augustine. And what you’re saying is that it has to be proportionate to the actual threat–

PHILLIP: I’m not saying that. Just to be clear. The Catholic Church is saying that.

DOWNEY: No, but that is– that is what just war theory is. But, it’s also up to lay Catholics, according to the Vatican II Council, second Vatican Council, to decide what that means for temporal matters, just because the pope makes some sort of dictate on political issues, that’s not a religious proclamation.

Watch above via CNN.

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